smoking in pregnancy

[fallala]

An acquaintence(close friend of a friend) is six months pregnant, and has not managed to stop smoking ( about ten a day I think)
I don't smoke (used to smoke the odd one or two but stopped when I realised I was starting to enjoy it).

I appreciate it must be hard to give up but can it really be THAT hard? I struggle to be positive about this person at the best of times. Actually I think she is a silly little so and so. Am I being a bit harsh to think shre is being stupid and selfish? Not that I am perfect but I would never have done anythign to harm my babies in the womb.

Who thought I was a politician!!!! I shall go off stomping at that kind of insult! I didn't be specific because I don't want to give anyone ammunition. Of course I find it hard not to judge, it's easier in principle than it is in practice. However I drank whilst pregnant - sometimes 2 pints in one go, does that make me a bad mother? I take dd to pubs all the time, I lose my temper with her, I sometimes stick her in front of The Simpsons so I can make tea in peace, I throw away some of her paintings and drawings because they look crap - to someone else any one of these things could make me a bad mother. I have never smoked, but my dh has and I happen to know how hard it is to give up. I could never stop drinking entirely, even though I know it could possibly do harm to my unborn baby, I'm just weak like that!

And when I said that we all try to do our best for our children, I was referring to Mumsnetters specifically. People who didn't give a crap about their kids one way or another wouldn't be on this site would they?

As for social housing - I haven't the faintest idea! I own my own house, never lived in a council house, but my mum has. In my experience of that as a child was that everyone was friendly, helped each other, everyone knew who the criminals were, but you didn't dob on your own, etc. Where I live now is quite a nice area, but no-one seems to know anyone else and the only reason you'd knock on your neighbour's door is to complain about the noise. I'd quite like dd to have the same environment I had as a kid, but I wouldn't like to have a council house. I'm lucky to have that choice! I like the feeling of owning my own house which is a priviledge other people will never have. I'd better go now I'm babbling!

Sofia - do the kids want to live with you - I mean your dh's kids, obviously. could they do so? I mean they sound like they are in danger. I'm a stepmother myself but my situation is very different - nightmare ex who hates us but is married to a millionaire, but my stepdaughter quite often talks about wanting to live with us. I don't think it would ever happen because her mother would fight us and our stepdaughter is frightened of her (loves her but is scared of her too). I am so shocked by your stepchildren's situation. How do they cope with the culture shock between your homes? What a nightmare.

Thanks fallala - one glass of wine and I'm away!

aloha i'd love to hear what you have to say after a whole bottle

Aloha: Read my posts a bit more thoroughly before you make ridiculous and offensive suggestions such as that I remain morally unmoved by cases of child abuse and neglect. I've never said that it's OK for mothers to do whatever they want to their children; my argument is quite simply that I don't believe the rights of the UNBORN should outweigh the rights of self-determination and decision-making of the pregnant woman, and that I think society (especially other mothers, as a significant and vocal minority) are far too quick to judge women who drink, smoke etc during pregnancy.

I have strong feelings about my own conduct during pregnancy and would never start smoking again or get drunk or anything else that I don't feel is appropriate. However I wouldn't judge anyone else who chooses to do things I wouldn't. You use the example of a woman who drinks a bottle of whiskey a day during pregnancy: I don't think that's "OK"; I do however think that she has an acute addiction that no amount of broody feelings will cure, and that she needs prompt and long-term help. I also think that it is HER health and well-being that is of paramount importance, not that of her foetus. Finally I do not believe that just because a woman is an alcoholic at week 8 or week 38 of pregnancy it automatically follows that she is wantonly and deliberately harming her unborn and thus somehow doesn't 'deserve' to have children. You may all disagree with my points - please do, but don't imply that I condone child abuse.

What I object to most is the 'cult of motherhood' that leads us to start crude and judgemental discussions about who 'deserves' to be a mother. Look at what happened in this thread: I state my support for the autonomy of the pregnant woman and somehow that's taken to mean I'm happy to see children left to rot in their own excrement! Amongst comments implying I 'support' substance abuse during pregnancy, and that it must be terrible to be my child. Pregnant women who smoke, drink, take drugs etc are judged 'selfish', 'weak', 'undeserving', 'unfit', and any number of other adjectives. Who are we to judge who 'deserves' to be a parent? Whose beliefs and conduct make them more fitted to the task than the next woman? I'm not denying that there are hundreds of thousands of children who need protection from outside authorities, but whether you're aged 0-18, or 0-118, you are an individual with full human and citizen rights: these, in my opinion, a foetus should not have.

I find it interesting that the issue of single mothers and social housing has become mixed up in this discussion, as this just provides another dimension to illustrate my point: not only do you have to be healthy and clean-living to qualify for motherhood, you also have to have a career, a secure relationship, and to own your own home. When I was ttc I belonged to another messageboard full of ladies desperate to have children, and they frequently let rip with rants such as "My sister lives on income support and smokes and drinks and has five kids by 4 different guys. I own my own home and have a husband: why is life so unfair?" As if there should be some sort of checklist you have to fill in in order for God to bestow the great gift of a child upon you. I do understand the sentiment as we all have the tendency to take this attitude to so many things: she's 'not pretty' enough to deserve that boyfriend, he has a criminal record and thus 'doesn't deserve' to win the lottery. But while some women might plan their pregnancies for years and immediately enter a perfect state of bliss upon conception, but for others having children is something we do because it's our animal instinct to breed, babies either 'happen' or they don't, and if they do, they fit into our lives, as they are. Not only that, a woman's conduct during pregnancy does not necessarily indicate how she wil fare as a mother once the baby arrives. I'm sure there's plenty of women (probably some on this thread) who smoked 20 a day during pregnancy and regret it (even if a smoker wants to quit, do you know how hard that can be when your family, friends, partner, work colleagues all smoke? When your social life revolves around pubs and clubs?). People and circumstances change (which is often the explanation behind single mothers living in council houses - it's not always a long term strategy for a lazy life), and the fact of 'being pregnant' is very different to 'being a mother'; it's hard enough to change your habits and lifestyle even when there's no baby in the picture, harder still with a planned and wanted child, and yet harder when pregnancy is either an accident or otherwise difficult to handle, emotionally or in practical terms. I have no problem accepting the fact that there's a large number of women out there who simply do not bond with their foetus and do not conceptualise their pregnancy as simply a baby (ie 'other' human being, with its own health issues etc) before it comes out. This doesn't mean that they won't be absolutely fantastic mothers when the time comes.

Before I rant any more....to get back to the smoking issue: if I am pregnant, I am aware of the implications of smoking, and I want to continue smoking 40 a day, then I don't expect interference any more than I would if I was not expecting a baby and smoking 40 a day. Being pregnant should not mean that my lifestyle choices are inarguably curtailed. Similarly if I was pregnant and drinking a bottle of whiskey a day I would hope to get support from family, friends and medical personnel because I needed support, not because the state of pregnancy suddenly made me a more valid investment of their efforts.

(I concede defeat on the takeaway issue, although I wasn't talking about curries and Chinese meals, I was talking about £2.99 meal deals from KFC and McDonald's. And I know that when I've been poor I've often chosen to spend my last 3 quid on a burger and chips, simply because it fills me up and is enough for me to get by on as my only meal of the day. Takeaways might have been a bad example but whichever way you look at it, people living on very low income often suffer health problems through poor nutrition. You might be able to buy reasonably healthy food for your money but you can rarely buy enough and it's virtually impossible to maintain a balanced diet. If you have approximately £53 (Job Seeker's Allowance) per week for all your household needs, how much food do you suppose you can get out of that? My DP was living close to poverty when raising children with his ex-wife, and meals for them (ie the parents) would frequently be mashed potato - on its own - or bread and cheese. They're not unusual: Polly Toynbee lived on minimum wage as research for her book 'Hard Work' and could only afford one hot meal per day, made from either rice, lentil or potatoes. Fruit and veg ARE incredibly expensive.)

I agree with those who seem to be arguing that people's behaviour, whether related to parenting or otherwise, should be judged in the context of their circumstances. Yes, there are less effective actions, distinctly dodgy actions, unacceptable actions, and totally wrong, evil actions, and I expect we all have our own secret or not so secret hierarchy, as you say fallala. There is always context though, even in quite horrible cases: most sexual abusers were sexually abused themselves; most smokers are poor; statistically, people who hit their children on Southwark streets were probably hit as children, have little disposable income, may be functionally illiterate and living in abysmal- likely- or less bad- just possible- social housing, I would guess, Aloha- well done for stopping it though; most people feeding their children KFC chicken popcorn more than 5 days per week probably just don't know how to cook a freshly roasted chicken or make potato and apple soup, or perhaps are too depressed to contemplate cooking.

Of course there are people who somehow, wonderfully, bravely, amazingly rise above terrible life circumstances. There are some on mumsnet. My father-in-law is one- a fantastic parent and grandparent who as a child suffered physical abuse, crippling poverty and was in borstal from age 8 for stealing a dinky car. Somehow he left a culture of petty crime and violence behind and discovered his gentle nurturing side, the only one of his siblings to truly do so. One of his brothers was a violent psycho, the other an alcoholic. I can't find it in my heart to judge his brothers harshly- they were products of their sublimely awful childhood and though one of them, through his actions, did untold damage to his children, wife, extended family and the wider community and should certainly have been stopped and jailed, I find it entirely unsurprising that he acted as he did. Though his actions were wrong, unacceptable, evil, even, I feel that he just didn't have any chance in life. What fills me with wonder and admiration is that a few people, like my father-in-law, somehow do carve a loving, moral parental path out of the tragedy of an abused, poverty stricken childhood. This is extraordinary, I think. Who cares if he smoked like a chimney in the general scheme of things?

The rest of us hoi-polloi tend, as parents and as adults generally, to act out our own experiences of parenting within the context of the resources we have gained through luck, good or ill. As Tamz77, Custardo, Tigermoth and others have indicated so eloquently, within some contexts any progress at all is astonishing, true change is positive and admirable; no progress, on the other hand, is completely understandable.

Tamz77, I would also suggest you read my posts properly before replying. I pointed out that you said you 'would never judge how other women conduct themselves'. I found that statement literally unbelievable. You now seem to admit that isn't how you feel. I am still genuinely shocked that you seem to think that a woman who drinks a bottle of whisky a day is not to be condemned even if her child is going to be born with foetal alcohol syndrome and she knows it and doesn't give a damn or seek out treatment or even try to stop. Well, I'm sorry, I think that goes beyond being 'ill' - that's just plain immoral and wrong. I get a bit sick of excuses being made for people's choices because its not their fault or they are poor. Oh, for God's sake, poor people aren't made morally deficient just by reason of being poor. How patronising is that. I grew up in a council house with no money. I don't think it's an excuse for cruelty or irresponsibility. I also happen not to support laws banning pregnant women from drinking/smoking in massive doses etc etc, but it doesn't follow that I think it is OK to do it. There is a big difference between the two positions and I think they are both pretty extreme. Why is 'judging' more morally reprehensible than permanently damaging babies? I really can't get my head around that.

I also strongly suspect that someone who is cavalier with their child's life before it is born is going to be a pretty rubbish parent afterwards too. If pregnancy isn't a good enough reason for a bottle of whisky a day woman to clean up her act, I wouldn't think parenthood would do it either.

aloha, the situation is similar to yours in that dh's daughter says she would like to live with us, but is afraid to "hurt" her mother. His son thoroughly enjoys the drama and lack of discipline in his mother's house and expresses no interest in coming to live with us. We have consulted with a lawyer who says that if we fought for custody we would probably (though not definitely) get it, but it could take as long as a year and cost in the region of £35,000 as she is entitled to legal aid and could drag the process on forever. It would even be worth spending the moneyh if we could know that we would get the kids in the end, but she is so evil that she would torture the kids during the process in a way that could actually be worse than the current situation. We have tried calling social services, but they were spectacularly uninterested and accused my dh of being a bitter ex-partner.

scummymummy, sounds like your fil and my dh had a similar background. My dh had violent alcholic parents and went to borstal at 12. After 10 years of institutions of one sort or another, he got his life together. And is now one of the most caring and responsible fathers I have ever met.

custardo, part of the problem with this method of debating is that inflection and tone doesn't come across well. I did not mean the example of the 2 mothers I knew to be representative of the whole, but rather as a caveat that I only knew 2 pregnant smokers and they happened to be a certain way, but were probably not representative. I just didn't express this very well.

This has got fierce. As Tamz has eloquently pointed out, this discussion seems to boil down to the rights of the pregnant woman versus the rights of her unborn child. I think the rights of the woman win, generally. She is a grown human being and a foetus isn't. If the 'foetus as human being with full rights' argument is accepted (from conception) then legal abortion is wrong. So is contraception. So is the morning after pill. So is ante natal testing. And I happen to think that none of them are.

That isn't to say that I think smoking in pregnancy is great or that smoking at any time is a good thing - it isn't. I'm not defending smoking or saying it's OK to smoke when pregnant because no-one minds. Clearly they do and society (and mumsnet) judges women who smoke in pregnancy. But the crux of the whole argument seems to be about the issue above and about judging women who do things that you or I wouldn't consider acceptable while pregnant. It doesn't follow that smoking while pregnant means a woman will be a child abuser or a terrible mother. No, of course it's not ideal to smoke while pregant and yes, women should be given help, support and patches to help them give up. But some people just can't. And don't. And it doesn't necessarily make them bad parents. Just addicted ones.

Someone asked about the addiction and whether it's psychological or physical. It's both. And I don't think any smoker truly enjoys smoking, they just pretend (to themselves) that they do to justify an awful addiction. For the record, I gave up and stayed stopped while I was pregnant.

Aloha, I don't think anyone said that poor people are morally deficient because they are poor - I think various people have pointed out that people should sometimes be judged 'in the context of their circumstances' (to quote scummy). And I think that anyone who drinks a bottle of whisky a day is ill whether you like it or not. You're right though - being pregnant isn't miraculously going to cure that.

Aloha: So where exactly have I said that I do judge how other women conduct themselves? I can't seem to find the reference. That was just my point: my conscience won't let me smoke, drink or take drugs but these personal choices do not put me in a position where I feel qualified to condemn another woman because her choices are different.

No I don't think the pregnant woman who drinks a bottle of whiskey a day deserves to be condemned. You assume she does not seek out treatment, does not want help and in fact "doesn't give a damn" about what she is doing. Which is assuming a lot of things. Throwing concepts of morality around doesn't help her and doesn't help her child; anyone who drinks a bottle of whiskey a day clearly has real and serious problems in their life. She may have had an abusive upbringing or come from an alcoholic family; her partner may have alcohol problems - or there may not be a partner at all. She might be suffering associated addictions or severe depression.

Whether one or all of these possibilities are true, she needs help, and I believe that help should be offered on the grounds that she is a woman who needs help, not because she is pregnant. I find it really harsh that you are so quick to label this woman as immoral and "wrong". Where is Foetal Alcohol Syndrome most frequently observed? Among the Australian Aborigines: specifically among women who are uneducated poverty-stricken, depressed, unemployed, and disenfranchised. Would you call them "immoral" and "just plain wrong"? Maybe you would, god knows enough of their own compatriots are quick to jump to the conclusion that they are fundamentally unfit, useless, not worth bothering to help....but oh the poor babies. What makes you assume Ms X - living in the UK in 2003 and drinking a bottle of whiskey a day - has any less of a shattered existence?

I have never said that being poor = being morally deficient and I'm sorry if I implied that was my opinion. But you mention choices, and the very fact of being poor means that your choices are reduced. Yes, everyone has the choice whether to smoke or not smoke, or whether to drink or not, but there's more to it than simply deciding, "Do I want a fag or don't I?", "Do I want a drink?". In fact if there was one question such as this it would be more along the lines of "Do I NEED a cigarette?", "Do I NEED a drink?" The social issues associated with smoking and drinking change little according to whether or not a foetus is involved, and have even less to do with concepts of 'right' and 'wrong'. You say you can't understand how I think passing judgement is more morally reprehensible than "damaging babies"; what I can't understand is how you can assume that everyone who smokes and drinks and takes drugs during pregnancy is some sort of moral degenerate, fully informed of the consqeuences, yet who cheerfully says, "I'm pregnant and I don't care!", then proceeds to deliberately cause harm to her foetus, as if for the sake of causing harm.

Great post, Tamz77.

Ok, so what about a woman who who is comfortably off, leads a happy life and is well edcuated etc. Where do you stand on her drinking a bottle of wine or smoking 20 a day when pregnant?

I am disgusted at the fact that this discussion has boiled down to social classes. Whether you are a millionaire or a single mother bringing up 5 kids in a one bedroomed flat in abject poverty...... does it really make a diference to the rights and wrongs of how to 'conduct' yourself during pregnancy!!!??? If it's wrong then it's wrong for EVERYONE...

Aloha - if someone drinks a bottle of whiskey a day you can safely say they are ill and it'll take more than a wee bit encouragement and willpower to 'cure' them!! It's naive to assume that it's only coz she WANTS a drink.... by this stage I think it's MUCH more than that! WANTING to stop and actually being able to (with regards to smoking/drinking/drugs) are 2 very different things.

My cousin was anorexic for years before she got pregnant... It didn't stop her being anorexic... nobody thought for one minute that she would just start eating again the second she found out!

Incidentally she has had 2 healthy boys but is still grossly under weight!

My world has never even begun to touch on the lives you are discussing so this has been a real wake up call for me I posted earlier in this thread and I would like to retract my post in shame. I am stunned by the articulate intelligent and passionate company I find myself in (but then I am new bod). I lack insight, experience and compassion and I would like to apologise to you all.

No Tamz77, i actually said that you wrote that you don't judge anyone else's conduct. Which seems to me to mean that you think that whatever someone else does is OK. The reason I think you cannot believe that is that you got so offended when I pointed out that this means you would think it OK to leave a baby in its own vomit and excrement, or to sexually abuse or beat children. If you don't think this is OK behaviour, then surely you are judging a person's conduct? Which, of course, everyone should do. If we don't judge -ie differentiate between behaviour which is Ok and that which is wrong and harmful then we abdicate all moral responsibility. And who loses out? The weak, the vulnerable and the disenfranchised. I think children fall into all those categories. I have not advocated that a foetus should have rights that override those of the mother, but that doesn't stop me judging a woman who intends bringing a child into the world who behaves in a way that will permanently and perhaps catastrophically damage it. Somewhere along the line I think people have to take responsibility for their own behaviour. I just don't beleive that we are all so weak that we don't have choices in how we live.You may be drawn to compulsively drink, smoke, whatever. But the fact that people can and do give up these compulsions means that these choices are not entirely beyond the addict's control - provided they really want to change. I would say that not wanting or trying to change even when your addictions are hurting and damaging others is a moral deficiency.

Ok my very last statement was, perhaps, a little harsh. But I am sick of the way every sort of wrongdoing is presented as either the result of the person's own victimhood or their social circumstances and thus perfectly fine. I don't think it is wrong to say some behaviour is unacceptable. And I do think there are people out there who behave badly, cruelly and irresponsibly not because they are ill, or poverty-stricken, but because they like it and can't be bothered or don't want to change. The woman I saw whacking her daughter around the head was smartly dressed and on her way to church, as it happens. I think judging her is considerably less wrong than hitting small children around the head.

Aloha I think the main crux of the argument here (well, mine anyway) is not that smoking is beyond people's control, but that it is a serious addiction which is not really comparabale to any form of physical child abuse. OK, I know some people have a naturally shorter temper than others and perhaps smoking is comparable with smacking a child briefly and lightly in temper, but it is nothing at all like the serious child abuse you mention.

In particular, the risks of smoking while pregnant are theoretical in the sense that you cannot see the damage, but you know that it could happen. Not only that but in general we smokers are very adept at justifying our addiction to ourselves, pregnant or not pregnant.

I'm going to admit now that I did have the odd cigarette when pregnant (mostly before I knew, but a few afterwards). However I would never dream of smoking in the same room as dd now she's here - somehow it's a different danger altogether and is so much more real now.

On the smokers-being-victims subject I do agree in general. I think people can be too ready to blame a person's background for their behaviour and that person will then have less motivation to change. However, it is indeed the case that the majority of smokers are from poor social backgrounds and will therefore be exposing their unborn children to all sorts of other dangers. Yes, some of these, like diet, will also be by choice, but others, like housing and crappy working environments (which may involve exposure to nasty cleaning agents etc) are not by choice.

Of course, some of this reasoning is probably me trying to assuage my own guilt, and I fully intend to give up before I become pregnant again. But I have always thought that statistics on smoking are unreliable because studies can never fully account for all the other factors mentioned above.

SofiaAmes, I see where you're coming from too (although like I say, I disagree with the child abuse comparison). I hope you can find some way to make those children's lives better - and I imagine you do already by being in their lives.

Let me just say something here about pregnant women. When I found out I was pregnant I was mortified! I would have hot baths in the hope that I would have a miscarriage (by the way, if I offend anyone here tough st, stop reading now if you are going judge me or are of a sensitive type), I did not feel that I would make a good mother, nor did I want a baby at that point. I didn't have an abortion as I couldn't go through with it, but I did consider adoption. As the pregnancy wore on I became more and more depression and delusional. I thought people were talking about me, that people in the street were pointing at me. I used to scratch my arms until they bled, just to prove to myself that I was still in control of my body - the loss of control was the most terrifying aspect of pregnancy. I did not stop drinking as I could not get my head around the fact that I was actually carrying a live baby inside me, so the thought of harming it by what I ate or otherwise didn't register at all. I began to blame the baby for making me feel so depressed, I thought perhaps that I wasn't pregnant at all, that it was a cancerous lump or that I was posessed by a demon. Then at about 8 months pregnant I came very close to stabbing myself in the stomach. I managed to telephone for help and they sent for an ambulance for me. Afterwards I began to receive help and support, and it was only then that I realised how ill I actually was. Before then I thought I was an evil, horrible and twisted person. Some friends had deserted me and my dh had despaired of me, I knew the feelings and thoughts I had were not normal for a pregnant woman, but just thought that was because I was an evil person. It was my GP and CPN who told me that I was ill and needed treatment. I cannot begin to tell you how that made me feel!

Once the support mechanisms were put in place, I became a different person! My dh will tell you of the change in the whole atmosphere! When I gave birth I bonded with her straight away! I never knew I could experience such love for anyone, even now I get emotional when I think of her. But I also have to live with what happened when I was pregnant. The guilt feelings will stay with me forever. Whenever she demonstrates a shy nature, or goes through a clingy patch, or has nightmares, I think to myself, is this the legacy I have left my child? Is this what I have done to her?

I was judged very harshly by some people when I was pregnant. They made a choice, they could either have helped me and made a difference, or they could have abandoned me, they chose the latter. Some people still judge me when they hear my story, but I keep on telling my story, because I don't ever want another mother to go through what I did. This is why I am so against judging people. That is not to say I don't do it myself, I was very harsh on Jordan, and still think she's a silly cow! But unless you know the whole story, who are you to judge that person? A lot of people think that depression, and self-harm affects the uneducated working-class. Well I'm working-class but I am educated, and yet it affected me, and still does to a certain extent. A mother is not just a mother, she is also a human being, who is prone to mistakes just like anyone else, who sometimes has difficulties living with herself, let alone her children. Yes there are mothers out there who don't give a damn either way, who have children to trap men, or get a house from the council, or simply for something to do. But we cannot say that these people do not deserve to have children, no-one can say that, are you God? Let's just be thankful that we didn't have their childhoods, that we don't lead their lives. And next time you see a pregnant woman drinking, or smoking, why not chat to them? That person might well be me!

Rhubarb I read this earlier and didn't know what to say, so I said nothing for a while.

What you have said has really made me think, though. In some ways it makes me feel worse about my occasional cigarette, as I didn't have any of those feelings in pregnancy - I had doubts at times as we all do, but (apart from being absolutely paranoid that I would miscarry) I had a model pregnancy.

I must admit I am sometimes as judgemental as the next person - thankyou for giving the alternative perspective. You are right - there but for the grace of God go I.

Aloha: Yes I would judge a person's conduct if they were physically, sexually or emotionally abusing a child. It was you who first made the suggestion that I'm OK with child abuse and I replied to this. However that's not really what we're discussing here. We're talking about pregnant women who smoke, drink etc and my standpoint is, no, I wouldn't judge their conduct: the fact that they are expecting is IMO largely irrelevant to the motives and needs of addicts. If a woman (rich or poor or educated or illiterate) chooses to smoke 20 a day then that is her choice, pregnant or not. She deserves the same information and support as a non-pregnant woman. Similarly if a woman is drinking a bottle of whiskey a day then she is an alcoholic - pregnant or not - and deserves medical help and counselling as a human being in trouble, not because she is pregnant. Furthermore neither of them deserve condemnation, certainly not because of the fact that they are pregnant, nor should they be written-off as bad mothers before, in fact, they are mothers at all.

Anyway, that's just repeating opinions I've already stated. Rhubarb's post says everything that needs to be said, really: that if a woman is pregnant and she needs help, it is she that needs help, and her needs should take priority over the needs of her unborn. I wouldn't presume to know enough about Rhubarb's situation to use her as an example, but imagine a different Ms X to our alcoholic: suffering an acute breakdown, nervous exhaustion, manic depression or any kind of mental illness, then having those she turns to for help and support not only judge her morality (or rather, immorality) but then proceed to determine her treatment based primarily on the wellbeing of a child who is not yet born? I've had an unwanted pregnancy myself in the past (which I would never have had the guts to mention here if it weren't for Rhubarb) and although I had an early termination, I went through some of the same feelings when I first found out: I remember being at my family home for Christmas, taking a bottle of wine into a scalding hot bath and punching myself in the stomach as many times as I could manage in between gulping it down - an amateurish attempt at inducing miscarriage, which failed completely. Smoking a few fags kind of pales in comparison to this kind of behaviour - deliberate acts of violence directed against my foetus - but was what I did morally wrong? Evil? Shameful? Or could it be better described as pretty sad, lonely and desperate, the actions of a woman who needed help rather than condemnation? My argument is no attempt to assuage my own guilt; I have known women who brought children into violent relationships, who have deliberately tried to harm themselves when pregnant, I know of a woman (no close friend of mine) who smoked through 4 pregnancies despite losing the first two babies to cot death. In my opinion none of them deserve to be condemned for their choices, and none of them proved to be unfit mothers.

It's also really interesting that mum2toby brought up the issue of anorexia. Take as an example an anorexic woman who is 25 wks pregnant and refusing point blank to eat. Given time, care and counselling, she could almost certainly be brought back to a 'safe' bodyweight, but it is doubtful whether her body can sustain a pregnancy in its present state long enough to reach this minimum target. Should you force-feed this woman, in order to save her unborn baby? There are of course many people who think anorexia is a 'modern', even invented condition, that anorexics are little more than vain, self-obsessed, attention-grabbing, that they just need to pull themselves together (in fact a lot of the same criticisms that are levelled at all sorts of addicts). Even if you are more sympathetic to her condition than this, you might believe that because her foetus is technically 'viable', its rights match or perhaps even outweigh hers. I'd argue that the treatment given to this woman should be given according to her wants and needs alone, and that her rights as an autonomous individual should not in any way be compromised by the fact that she is pregnant.

People who fight for the rights of the unborn tend to use what I consider spurious arguments along the lines of, the child didn't ask to be made, the child is 'innocent', a 'mother' should know better, the child can't yet fight its own corner. A lot of emotive language that ignores the fact there is not yet a child and there is not yet a mother: the foetus not only belongs to the mother it is physically a part of her. 9 out of 10 threads in this forum include some expression of sadness at the sacrifices women are expected to make once they actually have children, and the almost permanent state of guilt they live in, for one reason or another. It's bad enough that a woman is condemned for a momentary lapse when she shouts at a baby or smacks a toddler, bad enough that perfect strangers feel entitled to comment on or criticise one's child-rearing skills, when whatever it is you are doing doesn't even come close to abuse. I think it's even worse that pregnant women enjoying a cigarette or a glass of wine have to contend with the same. It is not equivalent to child abuse and frankly I'd be happy to see a mother smoke twenty fags a day through pregnancy and beyond if she loves her baby when it's born and raises it to be a compassionate, self-respecting human being.

Thank you all for helping me make up my mind.
I am more convinced than ever that she is a silly little twit.

But why can't you judge an action as wrong and yet still offer support to the person to try and conquer the problem?.

I am suprised that you don't see a woman who smoked through 4 pregnancies as an unfit mother despite losing 2 babies to cot death. I am assuming that she was a heavy smoker and that she didn't give up once her babies were born. As smoking in the number 1 risk factor in cot death, it is not an unreasonable assumption to say that she directly contributed if not caused the death of two children. If that doesn't make you an unfit mother, what does?.

Smoking is 'assumed' the number one risk factor in contributing to cot death. I don't think anything has been proven yet as they still don't really know why it happens.

This link between smoking and cot death is also a fairly recent one. Perhaps this mother was unaware of the link, as my mother was, even when she was pregnant with my youngest brother who was born in 1991. The info hadn't even been published yet.

Before proper 'education' women used to wrap there children up too much which caused over heating and, quite often, death. Ignorance to the risks do not make you an unfit mother!!!

I allow anybody complete freedom to f*k up their own life. But we do not have the right to f*k up our kids. And yes, that is because the child didn't ask to be made, and is "innocent". But that doesn't equate with believing that the rights of the unborn should legally supercede the rights of the mother. Every woman has the right to own her own body - and that includes a foetus who happens to be inhabiting it. But once you have made a concious decision to allow that foetus to develop into a baby, do you not have a responsibility to ensure that it gets the best possible start in life?

There is a big difference between somebody in a position like Rhubarb, who was ill (and I think you are brilliant to have made such an awful experience into something so positive by helping others in your situation Rhubarb) and somebody who can't be bothered to exercise a bit of willpower and stop smoking. I have been there - and yes it was (and still is) very difficult to stop. But it's not that difficult.

And as I am just reading about the basic principles of disciplining children - to all those who smoked during your pregnancies - I think you did a bad thing. I do not think that makes you a bad person