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Pregnancy

Talk about every stage of pregnancy, from early symptoms to preparing for birth.

smoking in pregnancy

251 replies

fallala · 27/02/2003 21:11

An acquaintence(close friend of a friend) is six months pregnant, and has not managed to stop smoking ( about ten a day I think)
I don't smoke (used to smoke the odd one or two but stopped when I realised I was starting to enjoy it).

I appreciate it must be hard to give up but can it really be THAT hard? I struggle to be positive about this person at the best of times. Actually I think she is a silly little so and so. Am I being a bit harsh to think shre is being stupid and selfish? Not that I am perfect but I would never have done anythign to harm my babies in the womb.

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Demented · 07/03/2003 16:14

I have never smoked and hope I never will. My Mum however smoked whilst pg with me and I would rather that she hadn't. I have had health probs over the years that could be attributed to this, also I was a small baby, 6 1/2 lbs (not tiny I know but on the small side). I find it hard to compare smoking with moderate drinking (1 to 2 units once or twice a week, the advice I received), there is at least some nutritional value in a glass of wine, particularly red. Agree as well that we all breathe in exhaust fumes but more often than not this is not by choice and why compound things by smoking as well.

Well done however to all you who have given up smoking etc when pg, good on you!

Custardo, slightly off the subject of smoking but as for the £45 a week house unfortunately in my experience it is not as simple as this, there was certainly no Local Authority housing available for myself and DH when we married and we were pushed into buying, which I am very glad of now but at the time we struggled to pay the mortgage. I think if SofiaAmes fancies one of these houses she will have to be a single mum with six kids living on the streets and even then there may be a six month waiting list.

fallala · 07/03/2003 18:04

sofiaames the way you put things is neither terrible nor offensive but you do point out terrible truths with great eloquence and some may be offended by the truth.
Your point about drug addicts was particularly well put.

Call me old fashioned but the question of my "rights" when I was carrying my unborn children (and ever since then )did not arise.

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fallala · 07/03/2003 18:08

forest I think it is absolutely incredible what you gave up for your baby. Well done.

I have heard from the person who prompted me to start this discussion " I really wish I could give up but I am a total addict".
I have a lot of respect for this! Makes much more sense than talking about lots of other bad things she could be doing but is not,as if that made smoking okay, which makes no sense at all.

Incidentally it is causing a MASSIVE rift between her and her husband.

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Tamz77 · 07/03/2003 20:02

SofiaAmes: When I mentioned heroin addicts and gambling addicts, I wasn't using them as an example to 'support' smoking during pregnancy in any way. My point was that non-/anti-smokers often fail to realise that addiction to cigarettes is (or at least can be) a similarly serious addiction. Why else do so many people struggle for years to give up - and often fail? People with emphysema or lung cancer sneak out of hospital for a smoke? And why is there a multi-million pound industry concerned with various methods for quitting?

I'd just like to see a little more understanding and support, and perhaps a bit more information. The majority of people know that 'smoking harms your baby' but when pressed, I expect that most of them would not be able to explain further, beyond perhaps, "The baby gets less oxygen and might be a bit small at birth." The truth is that to a lot of women the idea of having a baby that's, say, 6lb instead of 9lb is actually quite appealing, not that this would be a reason in instelf to continue smoking, but perhaps a disincentive to stop. There's no suggestion that smoking causes deformities or blindness or any of the more visible and thus 'scary' possibilities that might lead a mum-to-be to steer clear of runny eggs and Stilton while still enjoying a couple of smokes each day.

And while I fully respect your opinion on smoking, I'm also surprised that you say you're "glad you're not my child", simply because I believe my rights as a human being outweigh the rights of my much wanted, already much loved unborn child. I have satisfied my own conscience about the way I conduct myself during pregnancy (I gave up smoking, drinking, scuba diving, horse-riding, I take my folic acid and vitamins every day), but I would never judge or dictate how another woman should conduct herself. Nor are my decisions anyone elses business. I smoked on and off for ten years or so and I really liked it; I still have to odd craving. So if I want to give in to that craving and go and smoke a pack of 20 in quick succession, that's absolutely my decision.

Everyone does things that they know are not really in the best interests of their foetus or child; I smoked until my period was late so for the first 2 wks of its existence, my foetus was subject to decreased oxygen levels. Last night I ate prawns simply because it was an easy snack. And there's mothers everywhere who choose to raise a child alone, who choose to bottlefeed, who choose to have a nanny instead of staying at home, who choose to leave their child in front of the telly for hours each night, who choose to feed their child a diet high in salt, sugar and junk: all things that we are repeatedly told by science and the media are, at best, non beneficial, at worst actively damaging to our children's health and development.

If you are arguing that we should all take second place to our foetuses from the moment of conception, then you are effectively arguing that the decision to terminate pregnancy should be taken out of our hands, and medical staff should decide on the type of birth we have based on what they think is best for our babies. Perhaps the sale to and consumption of alcohol and cigarettes by pregnant women should be banned and policed? Should taking drugs and attempting suicide be illegal if you are pregnant? While these may be exaggerated situations they could all logically follow a decision to give full human rights to a foetus that doesn't yet exist independently of its mother.

BTW you're very misguided if you think it's really cheaper to eat healthier. Who do you know on benefits that can afford to eat organic? Or who can afford to spend £2.99 on a watermelon or a box of strawberries? And do you really believe that people enjoy living on a hundred quid a fortnight on some city-limits sink estate? You might get a newly-built 3 bedroom house - if you're exceptionally lucky - but chances are it's in a high crime area and your kids will have to attend a succession of poorly performing, underfunded schools. But I guess that belongs in another discussion.

SofiaAmes · 07/03/2003 21:52

Actually custardo, I CHOOSE to have a job and be married to the father of my children which means I don't qualify for a free house any time in the near future. And actually I do live in a very poor area with "low employment and high substance abuse rates and low educational achievements, high crime rates." In fact I think I live (by choice) in one of the statistically "worst" areas in england. But I still didn't smoke during my pregnancies.

Sorry Tamz77, but organic is not better for (that's something that we've discussed to death in other threads). And although I'm not on benefits, I wouldn't spend 2.99 on strawberries or watermelon either. Some freshly roasted chicken, fresh frozen peas and an apple would cost less and be a lot healthier than a kfc meal. And actually I know 2 people on benefits (my dh's 2 ex's) who would quite happily spend 2.99 on biscuits instead of the strawberries, watermelon or anything else healthy for that matter.

Also, Tamz77, just because I don't think that a baby shouldn't have rights that automatically overule those of its mother, doesn't logically mean that I think that its rights should always automatically overide its mother's. In my mind the truth lies somewhere in the middle. And I certainly don't think the government should get involved banning things. Because then things really would be only in black and white.

Fallala, thanks for the support. I'm a bit peeved with my dh at the moment (lying in bed snoring so loudly i can't hear the tv, when he said he would look after the kids tonight so I could have a break), so instead of yelling at him I come on mumsnet and argue....

fallala · 07/03/2003 22:44

I am married to a snorer too

Tamz your point about smoking being a SERIOUS addiction is really what I was trying to ask about at the very beginnng. I could not fathom why this acquaintence was still smoking and asked for opinions from those who knew , is it REALLY hard to give up (with being pregnant as an incentive)?
This is not the same thing as deriding smokers for being bad mothers or evil people!!!

However the discussion of course widened along the lines of "there are loads of bad/ good things you can do as a mum, why pick on smoking?" -- the answer being only because smoking is my current area of interest/the subject matter of this particular thread.

Lots of the contributions have made me realise how hard it must be to give up . The woman in question happens to be a silly little twit for all sorts of reasons but that is another story!

Hope they don't find out chocolate in pregnancy harms your baby

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SofiaAmes · 07/03/2003 23:48

well actually fallala, there is caffeine in chocolate....and having a jewish catholic italian mother, every time I eat chocolate around her (and I truly don't eat it very often) she comments "won't that keep you up at night?"
Then again, she also spent most of my first pregnancy in a great state of agitation about how much weight I'd gained (3 stone +) despite the fact that I've always been thin and kept telling me anecdotes about her friends' daughters who'd gained lots of weight and never lost it. I'm not quite sure what she expected me to do as although I was throwing up 5 times a day, I still managed to put on 2 stone in the first trimester (clearly hormones working)....sorry I'm digressing....

Smoking is supposed to be the most addictive thing there is. An ex-heroin addict friend of mine, managed to quit the heroin, but never could give up the cigarettes.

fallala · 07/03/2003 23:59

sofiaames my mil is a bit like that. She seems to positively relish the fact i became very fat after my kids (she is huge too) and started giving me size 24 clothes ( I was never THAT big)- she is goodhearted really and think she thought she had found a fat kindred spirit in the family.....misery loves company and all that .

Why is nicotene so addictive? Is it a chemical addiction , psychological or both?

Smokers, please tell, what do you like about smoking? As I have mentioned I have smoked a little in the past and I did find it most enjoyable which is why I decided to stop - was not hard to stop at all , not boasting here, just describing. I never really got that much into it, it did not get a hold of me like it seems to with some people.

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prufrock · 08/03/2003 16:30

fallala - is it hard to give up smoking - well yes, incredibly. I've given up (with a few slips) since New Year, and hate it. but I didn't actually find it hard to give up when I was trying to get pregnant. I had a really good reason for giving up. And yes I know that cigarettes are killers etc, but somehow never saw that as a good enough reason for giving up when it was only me I was hurting. Now that I have my dd, I don't want to kill myself becasue it will hurt he, so I do have a good enough reason for giving up, but I think it is because allteh problems with smoking don't ocur immediately that it is so ard to see them as real problems.

So what do I enjoy about smoking. Well, not a lot. I hate the aftersmell, the yellow fingers, the expense, the gunk that comes out of my throat in the morning. I often actually don't like the taste of cigarettes. But every once in while, you get the perfect cigarette. The one that you have when you've just reached the top of a steep hill, and the wind is snatching the smoke away as you breathe it in, and the taste fills your lungs with every breath. The one that you have at the end of a long meal, with the last glass of a gorgeous red, the smokiness of the cigarette perfectly complementing the smoothness of the wine. Oh why am I giving up....

fallala · 08/03/2003 23:01

I am really going off a at tangent but in the days when I did occasionally smoke , usually only when drunk then progressed to smoking in the car coming home from work I was acutely aware of the dangers to my health but was at such a mixed up phase in my life this for me was part of the attraction! I was not enjoying life shall we say, and the thought of a premature demise was actually appealing. That sounds terrible written down and I have moved on from thinking that way.
Just wondered if any other smokers could relate.

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Tortington · 09/03/2003 13:48

you can get a house demented up north in some areas housing associations are fighting a publicity war with each other to try and get tenants to "switch" landlords because the demand is so low - in these situations the landlord would not turn you down for being a single person - employed or not. certainly social housing by its very title exists to help those which are less fortunate than others. this therefore doesnt mean that everyone who inhabits them are a lower class of person as some are suggesting - for instance why are single mothers used as the example when talking of social housing - by this 2 word term alone most people draw the same conclusion - oh single mother - social security etc etc. this is not always the case - i wonder why people with less money who have to go into the social housing sector are thought of using the terminology we have used - and why it is seen as being "lower" "worse" "poor"
what if - someones life circumstances through no fault of their own have steered them towards social housing. what if that person had never been married - would that make them a bad person - what if that person had two partners who fathered her 4 children between them - what if this person gets a proportion of her rent paid and works as a cleaner on the local industrial estate? would that make this person a lower person than any of us?

and sofiamies why do you CHOOSE to bing your children up in that horible environment? if the choice was mine and i lived amongst high unemployment and substance abuse and many other social problems i would move and bring my children up in a better environment as surely this isnt good for their social or mental well being either - maybe if this is a choice and people decide to chose to live in these circumstances then this could be considered by some as child abuse - like smoking?

lol batters - i think i know why now!

Demented · 09/03/2003 16:04

Things are different up here then Custardo. I used the term "single mother" as I have heard of cases where someone at the Local Authority has told people on the housing waiting list when they enquired of their status that they would have to be a single mother before they would have a hope of getting a house. I have also watched a friend who split from her DH when her baby was born wait six months for a flat. I was not being derogatory when I said "single mother" as I do believe that they should have a priority when it comes to housing it is just unfortunate that poor morals coupled with high divorce rates have meant that this is more and more the case. As I said before I am glad that we were pushed into buying our own place as this has enabled us to 'climb' the housing ladder so to speak and we have a nice family home now. Both my DH and I were brought up in Council housing so buying was a big deal to us.

Rhubarb · 09/03/2003 17:43

Personally I think there is a hell of a lot of pressure on mothers as it is. If you stay-at-home then you are basically no good to anyone, you don't 'work' and become less of a person; if you work you are cruel for 'abandoning' your kids and being selfish; if you have a vice such as smoking or drinking, again you are being selfish, putting your kids health at risk; if you don't cook then again you are a bad mother for giving your kids loads of E's and preservative and so on. Shouldn't we all become Mrs Beeton and grow our own organic vegetables, make our own bread, do some voluntary work to help our community, have 2.5 children (it's cruel to only have one, didn't you know?) marry a man who works and only sees his kids at the weekends, and live in a rural village with a strong community.

We all do our best for our children, but at the end of the day we are all human too. So let's lay off the judging for a mo and recognise that whatever background we all come from, whatever vices we have, whatever education we have, we all love our children and do our best for them, albeit in different ways. Your way is not the best way for everyone, nor is your lifestyle. Let's all live in each others shoes for a while and then see if we are fit enough to judge.

Custdie, that quote you were after goes something like "Remove the plank from your eye before attempting to remove the splinter from your brothers." and "Let him without sin cast the first stone" - there are heaps of them in there!

SofiaAmes · 09/03/2003 19:20

Well, custardo, I don't actually think it's a "horrible" environment. As far as I can tell the only person suggesting that people who live in social housing are a lower class of person is you. I chose this neighborhood because I find the people friendly and i didn't want my children to grow up thinking everyone was rich white and priveleged. The local stores carry ethnic foods that I find more interesting than some of the wealthier neighborhoods and the restaurants and shops are varied. I try to avoid the high street after 10pm (when most of the shooting seem to happen) and my children are too young for the drugs and poor schools etc. to be a problem yet. I will probably move at that stage if I can't find some sort of a solution like sending the children to private school.
Rhubarb, I would agree with you 100% that society is very hard on mothers and there are lots of right ways to bring up children. Fallala asked for a debate on smoking while pregnant and we should really not have muddied the waters with all sorts of other judgements about child rearing.

janh · 09/03/2003 20:45

Blimey, this is a fierce thread.

When I became pregnant with DD1 I was a 30-a-day smoker, and when I was first pregnant (ie before I knew) I drank quite a lot too.

Managed to stop smoking fags, and drinking much, but still smoked 4-5 a day of some cigar-ish ciggy things with plastic tips. DD1 was extremely small at birth (5lb 11), and I am quite large so that was a bit suspect, and she remained small throughout childhood; her sister was much bigger (7lb 3) and was tall throughout childhood but they have ended up the same height (5'7) and approximate weight (9 st-ish) so who knows what caused what...maybe DD1 would have been 6'3 and 14 stone without me smoking.

Gave up after DD1 was born,`managed mostly because of fantastic pain-killers after caesarian which numbed me through the worst of it. Otherwise...agree with whoever said (way down this thread) that giving up drinking suddenly and completely would probably be even harder. I had tried several times to give up smoking before this and couldn't even get through 24 hours so am very grateful for the circumstances that let me slide under the wire.

Some people have much stronger wills than others and are much better at saying no. I agree that pregnant women should give up IF THEY CAN and that mothers should not indulge in any harmful substances IF THEY CAN MANAGE IT.

Not sure quite how this thread turned into "terrible mothers on welfare". I can see SofiaAmes's and custardo's points. Like Rhubarb I can see "let him that is without sin cast the first stone" etc. Most mothers do honestly do the best they can for their kids - it might not be everybody else's best but given their situation there might not be much else they can do. I drink more than I should, and I give my kids convenience food more often than I should (but they like pizza and nuggets!). Maybe we should pay more attention to the parents who don't love their kids and don't do the best they can for them, although I don't know what most of us can do to make a difference to them. All kids should be loved, even if they weren't wanted originally - being unwanted and unloved must be far worse than having a mother who smokes and drinks.

fallala · 09/03/2003 20:48

Rhubarb are you a politician by any chance??? I recall years ago a teacher saying politicians stick to platitiudes like " we must help the weak and the ill" so people could not help but agree with them. On the surface you can only agree with what you said but actually if you think about it , it is NOT true everyone does their best in their given circumstances for their kids. Also I am sure even you have views on childrearing which stop short at thinking someone else is not to be judged if they are trying their best. Would you not "judge" people who let their young kids roam the streets after dark? Or people who slap their kids on the face? Or people who shout at babies? I think all of these examples are unnacceptable and I would unfavourably "judge " a parent who did them. I suspect you would too. I am not puting smoking on a par with any of these but just making the point it really does not make sense to claim a "live and let live we are all doing our best "stance.
All of us have things we think are unacceptable in other parents. Smoling may not be on your list but if you think about it you do have a list.
Thanks Sofia for your support.

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aloha · 09/03/2003 22:02

Tamz77 - do you really mean you wouldn't ever judge another person's parenting? What about people who beat and starve their children? Who leave their babies to rot in their own vomit and excrement? People who sexually abuse their own children? I certainly judge those people harshly. I also judge people for lesser cruelties - I saw a woman recently slapping a young, weeping child very hard around the head and yelled at her until she stopped. I feel no shame in judging her at all. And no shame in telling her so either. I find it literally unbelievable that you think that it is OK to do whatever you like when pregnant no matter how badly it might affect your unborn child. You may well have civil liberties issues with making activities illegal - but do you honestly, truly think it is fine and morally neutral for a woman to drink a bottle of whisky a day when pregnant because she feels like it? Even though she will probably permanently and devastatingly disable her child for the rest of its life by doing so? You seem a very intelligent person and I simply cannot believe that you really think this is OK and beyond moral judgment. Smoking a few cigarettes a day is quite different from puffing away on 20 a day and I absolutely refuse to believe that a 20 a day smoker couldn't cut down, even if giving up entirely would be hard. It may involve willpower but it isn't impossible for anyone, IMO. I also agree with SofiaAmes that junk food isn't cheap. My mum used to run out of money all the time because we were so poor and I remember eating a lot of potato soup and apples in desperate times. It was a hell of a lot cheaper than takeaways!

aloha · 09/03/2003 22:19

I mean, I yelled at the mother. I would have preferred to slap the bitch hard around the head, but thought yelling would be as effective and less likely to end in a brawl. She stopped hitting her kid though, and looked a bit ashamed. Result!

fallala · 09/03/2003 22:56

good lord Aloha you are brilliant when you get going. That's what i was trying to say

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SofiaAmes · 09/03/2003 23:30

ok, i'm sure this belongs on another thread, but here goes anyway....all of us are saints compared to my dh's ex. (the nit nightmare one for those of you who remember past threads). She is currently pregnant with twins by 5th dad. He is a crack dealer who is addicted to heroin. Her house has been raided twice in the last 2 months because of his drug dealing and all the kids computers were confiscated (luckily dh's daughter's computer was at ours for repairs). He has just beaten up and broken both the arms of the father of the ex's youngest child. My stepdaughter (10) told dh that when she went to use her asthma inhaler a few days ago she found the boyfriend's heroin stash in it. Dh just confiscated a 4 inch switch blade from his son (9) that the boyfriend gave him. I guess the fact the dh's ex is chain smoking 40 a day all through her pregnancy sort of pales in comparison with the rest of her life.
And in case you are wondering, I'm not exaggerating.

bells2 · 10/03/2003 08:43

Crumbs Sofia - what a nightmare. It must be really worrying for you and your partner, especially in relation to your stepchildren. Like you, we choose to live in a very deprived area. OK, partially this is because it is so close to where we work but it is more than that. Like your area, ours is fantastically friendly. We know all our neighbours and are on great terms with all the local shopkeepers. More importantly though, it is reality. I don't particularly want my children to grow up in a ghetto of stockbrokers - I just like the diversity.

I also can't believe that convenience food / takeaways are cheaper than cooking from scratch. Leaving aside organic strawberries it just doesn't make sense (processing, packaging, advertising costs etc for one). I do wish however there was more education and support available to help families shop and cook healthily and cost effectively.

WideWebWitch · 10/03/2003 09:10

Sofia, sounds awful. My sympathy. Will post again if I think of anything constructive to say.

tigermoth · 10/03/2003 14:56

Just skimmed throught this heated discussion and I have to say TAmz77's arguments have made me think. You put the tolerance case forward very thoughtfully especially when discussing the rights of an unborn baby over a mother.

I am a non smoker, would have hated to smoke while pregnant, think it's more 'wrong' than 'OK' but can imagine how hard it is to give up cigarettes.

For some women like me, the whole idea of being a mother and being responsible for another life is a very hard thing to get your head round. Some women will hear the news with undiluted joy. Others me will not. And I am not poor or uneducated. It took me a long time to accept I must be responsible, but luckily I had no harmful habits to break and lived in a 'nice' area.

I have, however, lived in rough areas. I was a council tenant for many years. I have seen women who became mothers by accident, slowly and painstakingly transform thier lives. It can take years, though.

Giving up smoking, drinking or drug taking, moving to a better area, getting a job or trainng, ending destructive relationships with partners, etc takes much time and effort. Just because a woman smokes in those first few months of pregnancy does not mean that she will go through life putting her needs about her childs, so I cannot agree with those who say a smoking mother is a selfish one. Time will tell, I think the decision to smoke, harmful though it is, is but a small part of the picture.

mum2toby · 10/03/2003 15:00

Tigermoth - you have summed it up so nicely!! How do you do it??!

Tortington · 10/03/2003 17:26

"As far as I can tell the only person suggesting that people who live in social housing are a lower class of person is you. "

below what what i was infact refering to

"p.s The only women I know who smoked in large amounts during pregnancy were in fact low income, but the accuracy of your description ends there. They knew of the dangers they were posing to their unborn babies, but didn't even want to quit. They don't work and their (free) houses are larger than mine. And KFC is not cheaper than 5 servings of fruits and vegetables a day, it's just easier. "

this was the quote i was answering. if by this sweeping statement you werent being derogatory or judgemental then i apologise. however i didnt "make up" an argument against you sofiames about social housing.

thank you rhuby for the biblical quote i knew you could find it for me

if you look back my original point was how easy it is to be judgemental.

for reference it isnt cheaper to buy take away