Having a girl will divide us

[CrunchyCrump]

I realise this is going to polarise a lot of people and I’m not sure what I’m looking for by posting, everything feels pretty dark at the moment so reaching out perhaps.

I’m expecting a DD in Spring after a DS. Because of my husbands religion, which I don’t share, she isn’t going to have the same freedoms in her choices that I’ve had. Having to marry into the religion for instance or conforming to religious dress.

Yes this was a discussion before we even married, but I’m now struggling with the lived version of an abstract thought. There’s no wiggle room either, if she doesn’t follow her father beliefs he will be punished for it.

I’ve spoken to DH, he does understand to an extent but when I ask for compromise he can’t meet me halfway on this because it’s so clear in his religion.

I’m so sad, it feels like this baby will cause us to separate and I don’t want that but at the same time I don’t know how I can accept a future where she doesn’t have a choice.

It’s my fault completely I accept that, I feel like I’ve screwed all of our lives up but I just can’t see a way forward.

Islam did start off as a peaceful religion but Mohammed became a warlord and changed all that.

You need to leave him
If you were aware of this cultural religious issue it does
Beg the question why you had children with this man

I’ve spoken with my husband and the only differences between DS/DD would be the marriage/covering”

OP I'm technically Muslim. You are suggesting these two things (marriage and converting) are in isolation to the rest of her life. In reality marriage is a major part of many cultures in which Islam is the dominant religion. This means girls are brought up in a society where marriage is a distinct goal and achievement, with aunties who have lots of connections and eye up potential suitors. I'm not talking about forced marriage, or even arranged marriage. It's up to the girl, but there's family involvement. And even if that's not how you personally think, the culture is supporting that. Furthermore, her ability to date will be tied to this future marriage issue and as a result, her sexuality and capacity for sexual express will be controlled.

This does have some links to the religion, but it's the society that really polices this and there's no way she would not be aware of what "good girls'" do and don't do.

As for the hair covering, that's tied in with this, and runs parallel. I know women within a culture where hijab is dominant who have taken it off and others who have put it on, both going against what their families expected. But they were rare, because the societal expectations are so heavy that most women did what felt comfortable for them, which more often than not was in line with what their extended families wanted.

So by saying "just marriage and covering" will be different for her than DS, it actually extends across massive sections of her life. It's not about just covering hair or marrying someone of the same religion when she's in her 20s. Not even remotely, especially if you remain living in a culture that supports your husband's cultural beliefs.

btw
I've seen parents who live in the religious parent's country until the children are teens, then they move to the U.K. Often it's also tied in to educational opportunities and/or cost of private education abroad that would allow kids to do GCSEs/internationally accepted high school exams. That can help culturally, but the kids can also feel "different" in the new culture if they're one of the only ones at school wearing hijab and not allowed to wear shorts and T-shirts for PE for example.

Another option is to put them in (expensive) international high school - the sort companies often pay for tor expats. Those schools are usually a bubble, but with some connection/understanding of local culture that doesn't exist in the U.K., or not in the same way.

It seems you are blaming yourself for having a girl child. That is unreasonable to you. Move to 21st Century.

The majority on this this thread are not biased AGAINST your religion but are biased toward freedom of thought and equality to choose a way of life. Including serious topics like career and trivia like fashion and clothing.
Most of us would support education about all religions, repeat ALL religions. Most of Islam opposes this.
Are the afterschool classes in the madrassas educating or indoctrinating the children?

This thread got really nasty. Anyway, the OP has long since left.

I do know many Muslim women who date and have chosen their husbands, as well as accomplish a lot outside the home. Many of us are lucky enough to be able to cherry pick the parts of our religion that are palatable, and reject the bits that are not. The only point that I would make is that the OP's husband doesn't seem one of these people, and that will make life difficult.

Strange thread title. It seems you're more concerned about it affecting your relationship rather than your daughters life.

At what age will he start to treat her as a second class citizen? Once born? 5? 14? Will he always believe her brother deserves better than her? Will he favour your son or will he treat them equal until she turns 14-16?

Also if his religion is so important to him and he wants a traditional Islamic family why didn't he marry someone who stares the same beliefs?

Your don't have issues around your son. Would you be ok for him to treat his wife this way? Or his daughter / granddaughter.

Even if you can find a way to counter/ renavigate the scripture, I’d be more concerned about the internalised beliefs your DH holds and the drip-drip of that into her every day life.

@MorkandMandy

Even if you can find a way to counter/ renavigate the scripture, I’d be more concerned about the internalised beliefs your DH holds and the drip-drip of that into her every day life.

This with bells on!

Why is it okay to bring a boy into that kind of environment so he can grow up the same? It says a lot that it only bothers you to bring up a daughter with less than equal opportunities but you're quite happy to have a boy to perpetuate this cycle.
I wouldn't have married someone with such misogynistic ideas. If they didn't change those ideas I would not be hanging around.

@ParsleySageRosemary - While I don’t disagree with this and I have complained of it at home myself, it is still the case that other cultures are worse and I do think you’re being a bit disingenuous claiming otherwise when the thread is clearly involving one of the many examples of one of those where Islam is directly involved.

I don't think it is disingenuous. The OP is contrasting her present life and future DD's restrictions with the "freedom" that her DD will have if she abandons her marriage (and presumably returns to somewhere like Britain). Fantasing about how wonderful and how equal the treatment is in a place like Britain is not a good basis on which to be making decisions. If she evaluates it fairly, she might still say that the restrictions are to great in her current situation, but she contrasting a fantasy with a reality is not sound decision making. Indeed, an aspect that has barely been discussed is the culture in her current country which is likely in reality to be more of an issue than her DH's position - as what the country will offer her DD wil likely have more influence over her opportunities than her DH - especially as her DH seems committed to giving the DD the same education as his DS and seems focussed on two issues (a) marriage - which unless the country gives him control, or he is abusive, is simply not in his gift; and (b) clothing, which is, unless again the country requires, is only at most in his gift until she grows up, and even then, dubiously in the teenage years.
But the country control does not seem to be the issue for the OP, only the OH's views - whereas the country you choose to live in is far more influential in the normative aspects of life that your DC will be faced with (unless you education them in an "ex-pat" environment, where they are more likely to be influenced by that ex-pat culture.). And it is important to be aware of the reality - as per this article, for example. www.thetimes.co.uk/article/universities-told-to-stop-silencing-sex-pest-victims-g0gjhj35x
Because education in the world we live in is key. That is why for the Afgani (or Nigerian etc etc) girls the ban on education is absolutely fundamental - whereas what they are asked to wear may be annoying but is something they are generally happy to tolerate if they are allowed an education (I am not saying it is pleasant, but it is important to distinguish between the fundamentals and the externalities, and bottom line, clothes are externalities). It seems to me that in her situation, the OP needs to be focussed on the fundamentals. Is the Islamic education that her DD (and/or DS) will receive going to prevent them from accessing the education of the wider world or is it an addition. Is her DD (and/or DS) going to learn Koran and maths, or instead of maths.
And, I believe, a sober assessment of the choices we are making girls make in order to obtain an education (as typified by this article) in Britain is an important part of us also understanding the fundamentals. Emphasising being able to wear a tank top in the street if you have to sign an NDA ignoring your sexual assault to get a university education is a sign of a very trivial type of freedom. Being in a country where the individual gets to choose who they marry despite what their parents say is a much more fundamental one. The OP needs to evaluate what the real issues are.

Emphasising being able to wear a tank top in the street if you have to sign an NDA ignoring your sexual assault to get a university education is a sign of a very trivial type of freedom. Being in a country where the individual gets to choose who they marry despite what their parents say is a much more fundamental one. The OP needs to evaluate what the real issues are.

Where trivial freedoms like choice of clothing are restricted the fundamental freedoms (personal expression and autonomy) are breached also.

It’s not a sliding scale of ‘oh you’re being forced to wear these clothes because otherwise your father will be punished forevermore, but don’t worry because you can go to uni.’ They’re all linked. The man controlling what she can wear with threats that it will damn her father forever if she disobeys isn’t a separate issue to him controlling who she can and cannot marry.

Being a Muslim woman myself and also expecting a child, I have to say the following:

— don't have anxiety before the child is an adult. What you do as a mother will always be instinctively the best for the child. When it comes to religion, at 9 years old your daughter will have grown rational intellect to differentiate right from wrong & with the correct and fair upbringing, she will find the truth whether it be belief in a God or not.

— everyone's dwelling on marriage and why she bothered to have kids with a man whom they have no common religious beliefs with but this advice is useless if she's trying to find a way out. Let's bare in mind, @CrunchyCrump already mentioned that she knows she's screwed up..

— if Islam has become so hard, and inapplicable; it means your husband's interpretation of the Qur'an is way too extreme. The Qur'an is meant to be a way of life and a peaceful way of life therefore if there's a person who is acting in a way that is immoral whether it's causing damage to people's lives, attacks or even controlling behaviour without trying to understand then they have a very flawed understanding of Islam and above all, sadly a flawed understanding of their Lord.

There is another thread on the go about a woman who is married to an evangelical hard-line Christian.

What jumps out at me, and always has, is that religion is so, so divisive. Most religions have a central tenet of peace and goodwill, as haidri has pointed pout about Islam. But all become corrupted by forces intent on maintaining their power and that important message gets twisted.

This is why I eschew all religions and base my life on kindness and nothing else. I do not need a religious framework to realise that this is really all that matters.

about - not pout!!

Very true, why cant people just be nice. Not because a God says you will be damaged forever. I'm of the mindset that you should do whatever makes you happy but not at the expense of others. Everyone should live the life they choose not the life chosen for them.

Damned not damaged

@JanisMoplin

This thread got really nasty. Anyway, the OP has long since left.

I do know many Muslim women who date and have chosen their husbands, as well as accomplish a lot outside the home. Many of us are lucky enough to be able to cherry pick the parts of our religion that are palatable, and reject the bits that are not. The only point that I would make is that the OP's husband doesn't seem one of these people, and that will make life difficult.

There's a logical contradiction between cherry picking and respect for religious practices. Especially when said practices clash with other peoples'.

I'm from a majority Muslim country. Most things are halal. Sikhs cannot eat halal food, but that's what's available. So they just eat it. Likewise my Muslim housemate just ate fish, or vegetarian food, because she didn't want to put us out looking for halal food in rural Europe. All our food at home was halal as we cooked together, so of course there's give and take.

I don't judge people by religion, i judge them by their attitude, and I dislike fundamentalists of any kind whether they are Muslim, Christian, etc. There are people who call themselves Muslim but eat pork, drink alcohol. Others who expect halal food to be available everywhere but won't eat vegetarian food. There are fundamentalist people of my religion who only eat at certain 'pure' restaurants which are so far for me to travel and expensive, so I won't go out with them.

All religions say to be a polite guest first and foremost, and if nothing else is available eat without making a fuss. As a host we should cater to guests, as a guest we should be sensitive to what our host can do. That is the best principle.

*also to add said housemate wasn't really a fan of fish or veggies but she ate it anyway

Haven't read all of thread but felt i needed to comment.

My real life experience as a young girl living in a muslim country with an English mother and father whose upbringing and family were Muslim...Father was practicing Christian even though his family weren't.

I noticed from very early on that i was treated differently to my brother. If dad had friends round, i was the one to take them drinks over etc. I had to be the well behaved one etc etc. My brother, he got to do his own thing. If we went to see family, i not my brother, would be sent to help prepare the meals with the other women 🙄

Luckily they divorced and my mum moved us back to UK.

I was and am, extremely headstrong and i would hate to think how draining it would have been to constantly fight against the cultural norms for women. I wasn't even expected to cover my head, marry set people or be indoctrinated into muslim religion etc!! It was just the whole being made to be domesticated and demure.

I was 5 when we left and i still remember it all really clearly.

Please sort all this out now, for your son and daughter's sake.

Everyone always harps on about us poor oppressed exploited Muslim women. We don’t need or want your fake superior sympathy. A lot of genuine people here have posted trying to explain that what the OP is going through seems to be more culture based than direct from the religion. But oh no this must be discounted because us brainwashed head covering Muslim women have no idea what we are talking about. This would never ever happen with any other religious community. I can’t imagine the same replies even passing people’s lips if this was a discussion about an Orthodox Jew wanting his daughters/wife to cover or wear wigs once they were married. But it seems as per usual, Islam and Muslims are fair game.

@Lemonlettuce you’re absolutely right. The Islamophobic pile on is disgusting. In any other scenario the posters would be trying to find out more about the OP’s situation and relationship before making unfounded judgements and telling her to leave.

The only thing she has actually said is that he’d want their daughter to wear hijab. That’s not a big deal especially if they are in a Muslim country. Both men and women must confirm to Islamic dress - it's just female dress gets talked of way more often.

Parents are responsible for raising their children in Islam. After puberty they are responsible for their own actions. Since girls wear hijab after puberty, it’s really a non-issue. There’s nothing about parents being responsible until age 16 or until marriage – this is just wrong.

The problem on here is that people see hijab as inherently oppressive. They don’t try to see it from the viewpoint of wearers. Hijab is only a big deal to non-Muslims, who make it hard for hijab-wearing Muslim women and girls to go about their business unhindered and unjudged. The oppression comes from outside, not within.

Regarding marrying outside the faith, most scholars say the dispensation to marry “chaste women from among the People of the Book” (not atheists but believing Jewish and Christian women) only applies to those living in the Muslim lands, and in circumstances where they can't find pious Muslim women. It doesn't mean a Muslim man can marry just any non-Muslim woman. Unfortunately this happens a lot, and I say unfortunately because after children are born their priorities may change and they want them raised religiously. This inevitably leads to tensions in the marriage, as they have shifted the goal posts.

OP, if your daughter is taught about Islam properly she will likely want to wear hijab and marry a Muslim man (if she chooses to get married at all). If she chooses not to practise, that is on her, not her father. I think you are worrying about nothing, but as has been suggested you should do your own research on Islam and discuss it with your husband. It sounds as though he wants to do the right thing but is confused about what that actually is from a pure Islamic point of view, unhindered by social customs.

Oh look a Muslim bringing a jew into the mix very original

If we were discussing an orthodox jew or a devout catholic and someone said why you doing this you wouldnt think of saying anything about a muslim. Can you imagine the cry. It's all religions that keep woman in there place that need to change not just one but all. How can people grow when one sex is thought of as superior