Having a girl will divide us

[CrunchyCrump]

I realise this is going to polarise a lot of people and I’m not sure what I’m looking for by posting, everything feels pretty dark at the moment so reaching out perhaps.

I’m expecting a DD in Spring after a DS. Because of my husbands religion, which I don’t share, she isn’t going to have the same freedoms in her choices that I’ve had. Having to marry into the religion for instance or conforming to religious dress.

Yes this was a discussion before we even married, but I’m now struggling with the lived version of an abstract thought. There’s no wiggle room either, if she doesn’t follow her father beliefs he will be punished for it.

I’ve spoken to DH, he does understand to an extent but when I ask for compromise he can’t meet me halfway on this because it’s so clear in his religion.

I’m so sad, it feels like this baby will cause us to separate and I don’t want that but at the same time I don’t know how I can accept a future where she doesn’t have a choice.

It’s my fault completely I accept that, I feel like I’ve screwed all of our lives up but I just can’t see a way forward.

I can’t believe that any caring mother would consider bringing their children up with these beliefs and restrictions. The fact that your husband was allowed to marry outside of his faith but his daughter won’t have that choice, would have prevented me from marrying him in the first place. It’s ridiculous that these restrictions can be hidden behind the cover of ‘religion’ if someone not of that faith were to restrict a child’s dress and other freedoms I bet social services would get involved! If you care about your childrens mental welfare leave him now .

if she doesn’t follow her father beliefs he will be punished for it.

I wouldn’t be with anyone who punished their child for not following a religion.
It should be a choice.

I judge you both as I think this makes you bad parents.

Your husband will also experience a love so strong for his child - like nothing he has felt before

It's to be hoped so, yes, but since he seems so deeply embedded in cultural misogyny, I wonder if he'll ever value her as much as the son they already have?

All religions are really shit for women. I am Asian and I married an Asian man ( no one else offered) but I made sure he wasn't religious. I cant be doing with all that. DD can wear what she wants and marry whomever she wants.

Religion is a choice. Your daughter’s human right to not be oppressed or discriminated against should come first.

I think your husband needs to ask himself why he married a British women from outside his religion. What attracted him to that ?
Why do his children have to follow as he lives /believes but not his wife?

I'd find it insulting that he wouldn't want his daughter to have the same freedoms as her mother. Your daughter will be very much aware of this as well.

Religion is no excuse. I've worked with and have Islamic friends, they all choose how to follow the religion and to what extent it affects their lives. I have noticed it largely depends on the culture of their country of origin how they interpret the religion.

I have a strict muslim friend (married within religion, no pork, prays, does ramadan etc) who chooses not to cover her hair - she told me it's not an obligation. She did have to push back against her family to live independently, but because she earnt her own money they couldn't really stop her.

I have a friend who is a practising Muslim and often doesn't cover her hair. When she is with her family she does, but when out with her friends she wears jeans and doesn't cover her head. So it's all about interpretation of the religious texts. Her father is enlightened, although originally from Pakistan where things are interpreted strictly, and doesn't bat an eyelid when my friend wears jeans.

You said now you are beginning to struggle with the lived version of an abstract thought... I suspect both you and your husband are actually still in the realm of abstract thought. He may well change how he feels, you may change how you feel, and who knows how your DD will feel!

I think the important questions for you right now might be: does he respect me? Does he care for me? I think these will be the more reliable indicators of the type of co-parent he will actually be.

Please don’t beat yourself up too much - I think most people have issues in their relationships that sometimes feel insurmountable, and other times feel manageable so we choose to keep going. We can’t always know how things will pan out for sure, we can only ever work with what we’ve got at the time.

PS if your husband is your main point of reference on his religion, you might find it empowering to explore it on your own. People are very quick to say what a religion dictates, but the truth is there is often a lack of consensus on several issues between members of the same religion, including its leaders. Holy books seemingly contradict themselves all the time! That’s why people spend lifetimes studying and debating them.

Good luck to you all x

@Mellowyellow222

Do you really believe that no where in the world has a greater gender imbalance than the UK?

Sorry, no that is not what I meant. Many other societies have a much more formalised gender imbalance - and in terms of women being able to drive or to go to get an education etc, there is no question many other societies have a far greater gender imbalance.

But what the UK excels in is in pretending that it has no (or relatively little) gender imbalance, when in fact there is a huge unacknowledged one. The reality of the level of gender imbalance can be seen by reading websites such as Everyones Invited and the discussion there of rape culture . Girls are "free" to get a fantastic education and "do whatever they want", but so often that education comes with normalised sexual harressment/abuse in the school corridors (or in the classroom), on phones, in university halls etc. Their freedom to go places is restricted by the (legitimate) fear of what will happen if they genuinely do. The price girls and women pay for their education and/or their freedom is frequently horrific - a price by and large boys and men do not have to pay. Nobody in the UK brings up boys and girls equally - they can't, because if they did they would not be adequately preparing them for "British values" and "Life in Britain". A lot of the "freedom" of girls and women in Britain is a myth -and that was the point I was trying to make. Not to make comparisions with other countries where the situation is even worse.

@NothingIsWrong

Really sorry, but I would leave over this. I know that's a very hard choice to make, but I would NEVER accept my daughter being limited in her choices because of her sex.

Same.

Your DH either needs to stand up for his child and take the punishment or you need to stand up for your child and leave. You absolutely cannot have your child treated like a second class citizen because of her sex.

@IamfromBarcelona

Haven’t RTFT

But surely this will really be your daughter’s decision in the end?

She will be brought up with a religious father and non-religious mum.

She may choose the religion for herself and be happy to follow its teachings, or not.

But this is a problem for many years hence, and who knows how circumstances may have changed by then.

There will be indirect pressure from family and community through the father and may also be direct pressure from family/community. If it was "that" easy then no children would grow up damaged by the actions/beliefs of their parents/family

There’s no wiggle room either, if she doesn’t follow her father beliefs he will be punished for it

So he’d rather his own flesh and blood is punished to save being punished himself.

I don’t understand why you got pregnant a second time, when you must have had these concerns during your first pregnancy initially too?

Upthread, I posted that this doesn’t need to be considered as a religious question at all. So if we want to keep everything on topic here, how about considering that the OP wrote this instead:

‘We are expecting a baby girl. Although my son is free to live life however he wants, my husband insist that he will choose the girl child’s clothes and will have a veto on her boyfriends, who will have to be chosen from his friend group’s children. She will have to dress very modestly and behave as she’s told. He’s not doing this because he thinks it’s best for her, but because he thinks he’ll be judged by his family and friends and it reflects badly on him if she doesn’t behave how they want her to. I don’t agree with it, but I don’t have the power to do anything about it, though obviously I hope he will change.’

How about answering that question, because it’s the case regardless of motivation.

@Puzzledandpissedoff

Your husband will also experience a love so strong for his child - like nothing he has felt before

It's to be hoped so, yes, but since he seems so deeply embedded in cultural misogyny, I wonder if he'll ever value her as much as the son they already have?

that's the dodgy bit....many things are done to/for children out of love and the belief that its what is best for the child :( yes even fgm sometimes) and certainly circumcision and ear piercing of babies

Ah, so must be catholic/jewish

It isn’t Catholic.

@WonderfulYou

I don’t think the child will be punished. Maybe I misunderstood but I thought he (the father) will be punished? As in ostracised/not rewarded in heaven etc.

Perhaps I’ve misunderstood. I suppose being told that your behaviour will make your father not be able to live in heaven (if you believe in all that) is a punishment also.

women and men are treated differently but more based on how we’re predisposed naturally.

Oh please.

I get that you are in a very difficult position and that it is only now that you realise that your DD will explicitly be treated very differently to your DS. Your daughter, like you yourself, will be treated as a second class citizen.

Please at least let's have honestly here. Please dont try and pretend that women are inherently different and therefore deserve to be treated differently.

That is not true.

Women deserve to have choices, to be treated equally to all other people. To suggest otherwise is just victim blaming, and it's going on there in your own mind.

@Somerandomshittyname

She eats non halal meat and chicken (if we eat out), purely so she has choice but we all eat halal at home, even me, just because it is easier.

Whilst I think people should observe as they see fit, I think eating halal at home and non-halal outside is one of the most pointless things I’ve ever heard.

لاَ إِكْرَاهَ فِي الدِّينِ - there is no compulsion in religion

@jfhguseorjgijaerigjarfgj

Exactly. The Quran sums up in 6 words what everyone else is tying themselves in knots about.

@CrunchyCrump

I’ve seen this is now trending which is what I didn’t want given how biased and uninformed many peoples views are.

Thank you so much to those of you have given me links for further research. I do need to learn more, we all do. I’m incredibly grateful for those of you who’ve had similar experiences and for sharing them. I’ll leave the thread now, many thanks again.

It says quite clearly in both the Qu’ran and the Hadith that the decision for a girl to cover her hair (or not) is hers alone. Similarly the decision to cover her face (that’s why the decision isn’t even permitted to be made before puberty). Nobody is allowed to influence it and being forced into Hijab / veiling is grounds for divorce. But it doesn’t seem, from what you have said, that your husband’s culture follows Islam as per the Qu’ran / Hadith if they enforce it from 3-5 and use it to curtail female life. In this case it might help to actually become more religious & start following a stricter by the book Middle Eastern form of Islam (even Wahabbism for example doesn’t permit parents to differentiate between girls and boys until after puberty).

@jfhguseorjgijaerigjarfgj

لاَ إِكْرَاهَ فِي الدِّينِ - there is no compulsion in religion

Exactly

@Somerandomshittyname

It doesn’t have to be the way you describe it. I’m a Catholic married to a Muslim. Our daughter (3) is Muslim however the only ‘Muslim’ things she does is not eat pork and celebrates Eid. We celebrate Christmas and Easter too. She eats non halal meat and chicken (if we eat out), purely so she has choice but we all eat halal at home, even me, just because it is easier. My husband was born and raised in a Muslim country but fully accepts the different culture of the UK. Our daughter will learn about God from both of us and will never be forced to conform to the sexist gender stereotypes of cultural Islam. In all honestly, my husband is very glad that his daughter has born in the UK, given the lack of opportunities, for girls and women in particular, in his home county. Your husband is making a choice about the way he is practicing his religion and you need to make a choice for you and your children about whether his narrow interpretation of Islam is the right way for you all to live.

Aw this is nice, this is how interfaith upbringings should be done imo but it can be tricky

I get that you are in a very difficult position and that it is only now that you realise that your DD will explicitly be treated very differently to your DS

That's the bit I don't get
It's not as if these practices and cultural expectations are any big secret, and muslims certainly aren't alone in encouraging them, but surely this is the kind of thing to discuss before having children or even before marrying?

There’s no wiggle room either, if she doesn’t follow her father beliefs he will be punished for it

What a horrific situation to bring a child into. Imagine knowing your father will be punished if you make choices freely. That's not freedom.

How could you do this to your daughter?