Having a girl will divide us

[CrunchyCrump]

I realise this is going to polarise a lot of people and I’m not sure what I’m looking for by posting, everything feels pretty dark at the moment so reaching out perhaps.

I’m expecting a DD in Spring after a DS. Because of my husbands religion, which I don’t share, she isn’t going to have the same freedoms in her choices that I’ve had. Having to marry into the religion for instance or conforming to religious dress.

Yes this was a discussion before we even married, but I’m now struggling with the lived version of an abstract thought. There’s no wiggle room either, if she doesn’t follow her father beliefs he will be punished for it.

I’ve spoken to DH, he does understand to an extent but when I ask for compromise he can’t meet me halfway on this because it’s so clear in his religion.

I’m so sad, it feels like this baby will cause us to separate and I don’t want that but at the same time I don’t know how I can accept a future where she doesn’t have a choice.

It’s my fault completely I accept that, I feel like I’ve screwed all of our lives up but I just can’t see a way forward.

@Hottbutterscotch women who are not dictated to by religion don’t have a ‘default position’ I act however I choose. Wear a hat and baggy jumper one day, a mini skirt and boob tube another. Style my hair however I want - shave it off if I want. No position. Just living how and as I want.

I notice you still didn’t answer my question. If your daughter chose to start wearing mini skirts and uncovering her hair when out and about what would yours and her father and other family members response be? No issues with her turn in up to a family gathering or a religious ceremony with flowing uncovered hair in a strapless short little black dress?

Also, this is laughable Imagine thinking that if there was a problem of such monumental magnitude that a great proportion of women across the world were suffering this way that they wouldn’t come together and seek to resolve it themselves

Are you telling me there is no issue with how the women of Afghanistan and Yemen and Saudi Arabia are being treated? That if it was a problem they would all come together and solve it. How? They have no rights. Absolutely ridiculous.

I remember my ex boyfriend showing me a video of a girl in Yemen being interviewed who refused to cover up and wanted to be a doctor. When I asked what would happen to her he said she is probably dead already. No choices for her.

I should also add that in reality my DD could do whatever she wants. All the girls in the family could marry the bohemian surfer guy and upload the bikini shots if they wanted because ultimately they are loved immensely and we couldn’t be without them. We’d just have to lump it wouldn’t we like someone else would if they had a porn star child or those who have to visit their children in prison.

“
Covering hair is not oppressive. I know many many Muslim women & girls and none do so under duress. In fact they enjoy wearing the Hijab. There are so many lovely ways to wear one . To me they look beautiful, regal almost. Also, Muslim women are not the only ones to cover their hair but no one dares question anyone else”

Actually, I firmly believe that any culture that expects women to cover their hair, but allows men to leave their hair uncovered is discriminatory. I’m well aware there are many cultural groups and religious sects that prescribe head coverings only for women. Each and every one of them is discriminating against women.

I am not so naive to think that my own culture does not have rules of dress that discriminate against women. I speak out against cultural expectations for impractical clothing like high heels, wearing makeup to be considered professional or well dressed, and a plethora of others discriminatory practices prevalent in my own cultural circles.

So now we are talking about Afghans specifically?? Derailment at its finest. In Russia there is a horrific problem with domestic violence. Christian women but never mind we’ll stick to the Muslim theme.

You wearing what you want is YOU wearing what you want. That’s you and your business. Muslim women wear what they want too. Is it behold your comprehension that someone doesn’t want to wear a mini skirt? I can wear what I want and I don’t wear mini skirts.

When we attend events would you believe there are all different types of people there(we aren’t in Afghanistan) so if her hair was out no one would bat an eyelid. Many many Muslim women don’t wear the Hijab so there would be no scandal. She doesn’t wear it all the time anyway.
You are literally making up the wildest scenarios in your head to match your completely uninformed beliefs.
I can assure you that in a room full of our friends and family you would be the least liberal.

@Hottbutterscotch

I should also add that in reality my DD could do whatever she wants. All the girls in the family could marry the bohemian surfer guy and upload the bikini shots if they wanted because ultimately they are loved immensely and we couldn’t be without them. We’d just have to lump it wouldn’t we like someone else would if they had a porn star child or those who have to visit their children in prison.

you are seriously comparing your daughter dressing how she wants and choosing the life partner she wants to being a criminal in prison. @Hottbutterscotch I sincerely hope your ‘princesses’ haven’t been brought up to believe making their own choices is akin to committing a crime.

Even if you do leave your daughter will still be oppressed. Unless you take your baby, run amd hide for the rest of your lives. The damage is done, you knew the score so I can't understand why now its not what you want.

What a load of total bollocks

@Blossom64265 but do you not agree that there is something quite sinister about women telling other women how they are oppressed?
I see what you are saying re clothes seemingly for the male gaze but should we be telling one and other what to wear or speculating as to why?

There are all kinds of practices amongst different cultures that may not align with our own ideals but to call it oppression is very self righteous. Head coverings in many African cultures are akin to peacocks opening feathers. Showy and flamboyant. Bigger and better for special occasions. It’s quite incorrect to say it is all about men.

Sorry that was meant for I'm so liberal

@Anotherviewtoyou you’re being wilfully obtuse.

@Hottbutterscotch and you sound brainwashed. How convenient you’ve had zero desire to ever wear clothing frowned upon in your religion. What a coincidence.

Anyway apologies @CrunchyCrump for the derail.

I hope you find the courage to leave this man/religion and bring your daughter up to make her own choices not in a religion that doesn’t see her as equal.

[quote Anotherviewtoyou]@Hottbutterscotch and you sound brainwashed. How convenient you’ve had zero desire to ever wear clothing frowned upon in your religion. What a coincidence.[/quote]
I’m not Muslim. I’ve made that clear in my original post. I can wear whatever I want. I don’t want to wear mini skirts because I’m a Jean queen.
It’s really not good that you are so rigid in your thinking. It seems almost painful for you to hear that we are living a free and happy life.
It’s not a normal way to be.

Can you link to the text that says girls must cover their head. My understand is that the Koran DOES’T say that in the Koran its is an interpretation of “modest dress “

Remove yourself from any marriage situation where your parenting views are not worth 50% and your children are in line for oppression/ abuse - yes it is abuse!!

Hotbutterscotch

I don’t think sex based cultural expectations in attire need to be linked to the male gaze to be discriminatory. All that is required for it to be discriminatory is to apply to one sex and not the other and not be related in some practical way to making life easier for the wearer based upon actual biological differences.

So it is not discrimination if my knit lounge wear are cut differently than my husband’s because as a woman, I am more likely to have larger hips and a smaller waste. If I had straight hips, I should be welcome to buy knit lounge wear from the men’s section and a man who has large hips should feel comfortable coming into the women’s section to buy his.

Most of the time, the expectations for attire for women are decidedly impractical. Little girls worrying about not letting their headscarves slip while hanging upside down on a play structure is impractical. Women wearing wigs in the heat to hide their real hair is impractical. Women getting yeast infections from wearing hosiery to work is impractical. Women getting bunions that require surgery from too many hours logged in high heels is impractical.

I don’t believe we should stop at borders or cultural lines to call-out discrimination or bias. I’m also not calling for a ban to high heels or hosiery in my own culture. Men and women should be free to make their own choices in attire. The problem is that sometimes cultural expectations are so strong as to be non-optional and in some circumstances these discriminatory practices are even codified into law.

@toomuchlaundry

I’m afraid I don’t know! I just noticed a lady in a store once praying and she had a rolled up cardi in front of her as a line. I remember wondering if you had to have it and I looked it up at home and read that was the reason, that it forms a barrier so your prayer isn’t spoiled by people walking in front.

I’m not a Muslim by the way! Was just sharing something I had read.

@Hottbutterscotch

I should also add that in reality my DD could do whatever she wants. All the girls in the family could marry the bohemian surfer guy and upload the bikini shots if they wanted because ultimately they are loved immensely and we couldn’t be without them. We’d just have to lump it wouldn’t we like someone else would if they had a porn star child or those who have to visit their children in prison.

I mean this is sort of the problem with op.

Say a woman chooses to wear a hijab and she loves it. Picking all the colours, tying it each morning, feeling it looks lovely to her. Absolutely no problem.

Having to wear it because your parents will be punished in hell or because it will be akin to being seen as ‘shameful’ like a porn star or a criminal? That’s problematic. Perhaps it’s not being forced onto the girl’s head, but knowing your family will view you as if you’ve committed a crime and gone to prison? Having your father say that because you don’t wear a bit of cloth over your hair he will live in hell for ever after death? That’s abusive.

And what is your point about domestic violence in Russia? If op had come on and said ‘my husband is Russian and says he can hit our daughter’ do you think everyone would have said ‘well as long as he’s not a Muslim.’

Girls & women, from what I have seen for 25 years, are treated with kid gloves. The boys in the family are raised to be responsible for the girls too.

Don’t even really know what to say. The boys are raised to be ‘responsible’ for the girls while the girls are ‘treated with kid gloves.’

Also known as ‘women are infantilised and boys are taught that they are in charge of them. Women can bring shame to the family, especially the men, and need boys and men to be responsible for them from the very beginning.’

All this has NOTHING to do with being Muslim. It had EVERYTHING to do with sexism and trying to twist your religion to support controlling women and girls.

[quote CrunchyCrump]@girlmom21 all children are taught the religion from around 3-5 so she’ll know about the expectations. Once any child hits 16 they’ll be accountable for their own actions as it were but yes parents are effectively punished (doesn’t get into heaven) for actions their child takes up until they’re married.

Part if me is thinking I’m blowing this up for something that’s not going to impact them for 14+ years. I’ll be ensuring they both get my views as well as they are taught to respect all other beliefs/faiths. It could be a non-issue, or at least kept kicking along into future IFYKWIM.[/quote]
of course it will impact her every day from before she is even born. Before she's born, boundaries will have been set up regarding who she can be. By 14 she will already know she is valued less than her brother, less than men. Her attitude to life may largely be settled. I have nieces and nephews like this. Boy given every opportunity ,(which he didn't want. all he wants is to go to gym and mysteriously get rich). Girls go to secondary school (which we must push for) then are to wait for arranged marriage. I find it horrific as we are not from this culture/religion (there's not much difference. relative married into it). By the time your girl is 14 or 16 (to decide for herself,) she will have had 14/16 years of oppression/indoctrination. Think about that. She may just be handed over to marriage. Is this your dream for her?
Your ds learning that women are less deserving of men?
Women in this country already have to fight for so many things (albeit better off than many other countries). Don't add to that burden

In some countries, if a woman is assaulted she needs five witnesses WTF she can be punished for promiscuous behaviour if raped. Woman have been hung for the crime of rape, it's safer to keep it quite. That unfortunately is what some woman live with. A man can divorce his wife by saying it three times, after that he can only remarry her after she has married another man and divorced. I can't remember which country it was but it tried to bring into law that if a man raped a woman he had to then marry that woman. That didn't get through but WOW. Girls can be married as young as nine!

Oops 4 witnesses

Have a thought for the OPs son, if he grows up to be gay!

Even when you go to heaven its sexiest 70 virgins

Might be helpful to stop slating a religion for things entirely based on a fucked up culture of a country claiming to be Islamic... Islam actually preaches peace, respect, and love...not oppression and misogyny.
Just because men choose to twist a text to suit them, doesn't mean a religion is disgusting.
At the time the Quran was written, women relied on men for everything. It tells men to marry more than one woman, simply to stop them falling into disrepute and poverty...prostitution for example; it was relevant at the time. In this day and age, particularly in the west, that obviously isn't necessary...so the practice has been abandoned and men are told to be faithful to their wife (singular) and vice versa. The fact that some Muslims take advantage and use an ancient text as an excuse to be unfaithful have have more than one wife, does not mean Islam is fucked up; it means that people are taking advantage.

The prejudice and Islamophobia here is actually disgusting.

As I stated before, I'm not at all religious, but I can respect others beliefs even though I don't believe them. Some of you need to take a good look at yourselves.