Having a girl will divide us

[CrunchyCrump]

I realise this is going to polarise a lot of people and I’m not sure what I’m looking for by posting, everything feels pretty dark at the moment so reaching out perhaps.

I’m expecting a DD in Spring after a DS. Because of my husbands religion, which I don’t share, she isn’t going to have the same freedoms in her choices that I’ve had. Having to marry into the religion for instance or conforming to religious dress.

Yes this was a discussion before we even married, but I’m now struggling with the lived version of an abstract thought. There’s no wiggle room either, if she doesn’t follow her father beliefs he will be punished for it.

I’ve spoken to DH, he does understand to an extent but when I ask for compromise he can’t meet me halfway on this because it’s so clear in his religion.

I’m so sad, it feels like this baby will cause us to separate and I don’t want that but at the same time I don’t know how I can accept a future where she doesn’t have a choice.

It’s my fault completely I accept that, I feel like I’ve screwed all of our lives up but I just can’t see a way forward.

@Hotbutterscotch - if you think that Islamic cultural practices are the only ones questioned on these threads, you are mistaken. The practices of Catholics, Jews and others are often challenged, particularly when they impact on women and girls.
Such practices are not above criticism, and no religion or cultural belief should be above challenge either.
If you see anything racist or otherwise hateful, please report it.

@Hottbutterscotch the girls are treated like princesses / with kid gloves ???
That is not good !
That reinforces unhelpful gender views -

Your children should have more freedoms than you , not less. I just can't stomach the idea of you wearing a mini and your DD being all covered up.

[quote Maireas]@Hotbutterscotch - if you think that Islamic cultural practices are the only ones questioned on these threads, you are mistaken. The practices of Catholics, Jews and others are often challenged, particularly when they impact on women and girls.
Such practices are not above criticism, and no religion or cultural belief should be above challenge either.
If you see anything racist or otherwise hateful, please report it. [/quote]
I am Hindu by birth. We have some hideous practices. I have junked most of them and kept only the harmless things like festivals and food. To be fair, many Hindus don't bother following antiquated books written by some misogynistic old man any more, like people of other religions.

I think we're getting a bit off track here. There seem to be some misunderstandings and assumptions getting shared, which I'd like to reassure people aren't reflective of how many Muslims live. We're ordinary people, and quite a few of the things mentioned previously are things done by minority groups, and/or things which seem to have been misunderstood, perhaps because they've been experienced without an explanation of context.

For example,

OP's husband claims he won't get to go to heaven unless he forces his daughter to comply with his wishes... Nope. His religious responsibility is to provide a loving, safe home and to provide sufficient opportunities for his children to make their own informed decisions. Oppressing his daughter is wrong, and would be considered sinful. There can be no compulsion in religion - his children must be free to make their own choices.

Men getting to wear what they want and do what they want while treating women badly? Not acceptable. Guidance about dressing modestly (which varies between cultures and the basic principle is to try not to offend or distress others, and to respect the society in which you live - eg. most people probably wouldn't wear mini-skirts or t-shirts with rude slogans on them if they were going to a funeral or an important business meeting) applies to men and women. Guidance about pre-marital relationships applies to men and women. Guidance about respecting each other applies to men and women. Where you see men oppressing their wives and girlfriends, cheating, being violent or abusive... That's because those men are arseholes. They are going against some of the most basic principles of most faiths, which can be summarised as "try not to be arseholes to each other". Wrapping up their behaviour in cultural overlays and incorrect "interpretations" of a faith doesn't mean their behaviour becomes acceptable.

Walking in front of someone who is concentrating on an activity which is important to them can present them with a potential distraction, so it's generally good manners to give people a bit of space if you can tell that they're busy with something. It's a person's own responsibility, though, to do what they can to maintain their concentration. Some people might choose to put a visible barrier up (like a bag or a jumper) as an indicator of "please leave me this much space". If they haven't, then just leave what space feels appropriate in the context. If you watch videos of people praying in congregation pre-COVID, you'll see that we don't actually take up much individual space, and we can pray quite comfortably in very busy settings. As for dogs etc, the main issue I've found with dogs interrupting me is that I want to pet them - they aren't offensive to me at all.

If anyone is interested in learning about Islam, or indeed about any faith, and finding out if things they've heard are accurate, I'd suggest making contact with a local place of worship and asking if they could recommend any resources or if they do "Doors Open" days where people can visit and speak with people who have studied the faith. I've found such days really interesting and found out a lot about different faiths and cultures.

There's more that unites us than that divides us.

@Scirocco - thank you for that measured post. Very true, and very good advice.

@Somerandomshittyname

Dd doesn’t find it confusing at all, maybe it’s just you?

I’d say it’s more confused than confusing. But as I said, each to their own

@Scirocco yours is the best post I’ve read here !
If I read it correctly it’s about the difference between men being religious and being assholes -
And being an asshole can be dressed as religion to justify being an asshole !

@Scirocco

I think we're getting a bit off track here. There seem to be some misunderstandings and assumptions getting shared, which I'd like to reassure people aren't reflective of how many Muslims live. We're ordinary people, and quite a few of the things mentioned previously are things done by minority groups, and/or things which seem to have been misunderstood, perhaps because they've been experienced without an explanation of context.

For example,

OP's husband claims he won't get to go to heaven unless he forces his daughter to comply with his wishes... Nope. His religious responsibility is to provide a loving, safe home and to provide sufficient opportunities for his children to make their own informed decisions. Oppressing his daughter is wrong, and would be considered sinful. There can be no compulsion in religion - his children must be free to make their own choices.

Men getting to wear what they want and do what they want while treating women badly? Not acceptable. Guidance about dressing modestly (which varies between cultures and the basic principle is to try not to offend or distress others, and to respect the society in which you live - eg. most people probably wouldn't wear mini-skirts or t-shirts with rude slogans on them if they were going to a funeral or an important business meeting) applies to men and women. Guidance about pre-marital relationships applies to men and women. Guidance about respecting each other applies to men and women. Where you see men oppressing their wives and girlfriends, cheating, being violent or abusive... That's because those men are arseholes. They are going against some of the most basic principles of most faiths, which can be summarised as "try not to be arseholes to each other". Wrapping up their behaviour in cultural overlays and incorrect "interpretations" of a faith doesn't mean their behaviour becomes acceptable.

Walking in front of someone who is concentrating on an activity which is important to them can present them with a potential distraction, so it's generally good manners to give people a bit of space if you can tell that they're busy with something. It's a person's own responsibility, though, to do what they can to maintain their concentration. Some people might choose to put a visible barrier up (like a bag or a jumper) as an indicator of "please leave me this much space". If they haven't, then just leave what space feels appropriate in the context. If you watch videos of people praying in congregation pre-COVID, you'll see that we don't actually take up much individual space, and we can pray quite comfortably in very busy settings. As for dogs etc, the main issue I've found with dogs interrupting me is that I want to pet them - they aren't offensive to me at all.

If anyone is interested in learning about Islam, or indeed about any faith, and finding out if things they've heard are accurate, I'd suggest making contact with a local place of worship and asking if they could recommend any resources or if they do "Doors Open" days where people can visit and speak with people who have studied the faith. I've found such days really interesting and found out a lot about different faiths and cultures.

There's more that unites us than that divides us.

Such a great post @scirocco.

I've never met a Muslim woman who dated and chose her husband. Maybe I'm wrong but I dont think so. Religion seems to be getting more devout not less. Go to speakers corner and preach the bible, see how you get on

@Ddot

I've never met a Muslim woman who dated and chose her husband. Maybe I'm wrong but I dont think so. Religion seems to be getting more devout not less. Go to speakers corner and preach the bible, see how you get on

@Ddot Yes, you’re wrong. HTH.

It’s always men out on street corners preaching the Bible. They usually carry placards saying things like ‘All men repent of your sins and ye shall be saved’ or something. My 8 yr old dd pointed out that it meant we women could do what we wanted. The sexism of these ancient religions are so obvious a child can see them, as they would be built on and for or against Rome, although I wonder if the op’s dd would have the freedom my dd had to actually point them out and mention them.

I said speakers corner not a corner

phishy
Which bits wrong? And what's HTH

@Wannago A lot of the "freedom" of girls and women in Britain is a myth -and that was the point I was trying to make.

While I don’t disagree with this and I have complained of it at home myself, it is still the case that other cultures are worse and I do think you’re being a bit disingenuous claiming otherwise when the thread is clearly involving one of the many examples of one of those where Islam is directly involved.

[quote Anotherviewtoyou]@Hottbutterscotch how condescending of you to imply op’s very valid worries of her daughter being brought up in a religion that does not see women as equals as akin to you crying over not having a nice too to wear you sound brainwashed in all honesty.

I’d rather my daughter be treated as an equal than a ‘princess’ however I think it’d an apt description - locked in an ivory tower unable to make her own choices. How sad.[/quote]
Princesses in ivory towers who are at university, working, starting up businesses.

Again more rubbish. I use the word princess and you take that to mean trapped and voiceless. Why don’t you all work to free poor Catherine from her torturous existence then 🙄

At least poor Catherine dated and chose her husband

guidance about dressing modestly applies to men and women @Scirocco

Not in my experience. I’ll never forget my ex (we stayed friends) sending me pics from his family holiday. Lovely beach resort. Him, his brother in law and dad all wearing swim shorts and looking happy out. His mother and sister in what I can only describe as a hooded black scuba suit with a gap for their eyes nose and mouth. Must’ve been such a relaxing holiday for them lying in the sun lounger in the baking heat in that get up. While the ‘guidance’ may be the same the reality most certainly is not.

@Hottbutterscotch how do you believe it benefits your daughter to be treated like a ‘princess’ and with ‘kid gloves’?

I should also say he told me the religion had gotten more severe in recent years (say last 30). He showed me tons of family photos of when his parents dated and when him and his sister were very young. Mother without a hijab in sight, wearing jeans and t shirts. He said there came a time where it just became unsafe for her to dress how she wanted anc she had no choice but to start wearing a hijab and covering up.

@Ddot

At least poor Catherine dated and chose her husband

More nonsense. Muslim women do choose. The process is different but it does not negate choice. You are very committed to your ignorance.

@Anotherviewtoyou what would she not gain? Is suffering & ill treatment the makings of a better woman? We have now moved from ‘women are treated like second class citizens’ to ‘ why would you want to be treated like a princess??’ A princess is by very definition not a second class citizen but even that’s not good enough now.

As I said, there’s no genuine concern for Muslim women. None at all because even when someone comes along and says the CHOOSE to wear a Hijab someone counters with ‘but why??’.
I honestly can’t believe OP thought she would get anything close to a reasonable discussion.

Unfortunately for OP their is no easy option. Hopefully her husband will soften his views

@Hottbutterscotch you do know it’s not ‘treat like a princess’ or ‘ill treatment’. How about treating
them like an equal human being - not putting them on a pedestal or mis treating them.

Can you say honestly if your daughters decided to stop dressing modestly and stop wearing a hijab and marry a atheist bohemian surfer from Australia and uploaded multiple pictures to social media of them in a bikini on the beach that there would be no repercussions for them either within the family or community? What would your response be to them in that situation - honestly.

@Anotherviewtoyou she doesn’t wear the Hijab. She wears Dhuku which is a way to wrap the hair up in line with my West Indian culture. It doesn’t look anything like a Hijab but it amounts to the same. No one has any negative views on that though. I’ve noticed turban type head wraps even for babies now. Seemingly only Hijabs repel people.
She dresses exactly the same as her cousins and friends. They all wear high tops, a huge puffa & oversized tracksuits. On a more formal day she’s wearing jeans, shirt & ballet pumps. Modest no?

She’s on social media and she posts whatever she wants. She doesn’t want to post bikini shots as many don’t. She wears a bikini on holiday but she’s in a villa with a big group of girlfriends. She often used to visit her cousin who is doing an internship at a magazine house in New York. Her devout hijab wearing cousin.
She’s currently at a charity event and will stay over at the hotel. She’s living a fully persecuted life!

The community mean nothing to me. Gossip exists in every walk of life & I take zero interest. My husband is very sure of his life choices & how conduct ourselves as a family. It’s another stereotype that Muslims live for the approval of their communities. Neither of us would ever put nosey neighbours over the well-being of our family.

Not to you personally but as a side note. There’s really nothing more oppressive than a bunch of women deciding that another bunch are oppressed because they don’t live like them. Imagine deciding yours is the default position and that anything other than that is substandard. Then having the audacity to be metaphorically screaming in someone’s face “you are oppressed” regardless of them telling you they absolutely are not. Imagine thinking that if there was a problem of such monumental magnitude that a great proportion of women across the world were suffering this way that they wouldn’t come together and seek to resolve it themselves. The arrogance of thinking Muslim women are so intellectually inferior that even in the West where the resources for emancipation would be readily available that they still need your saviour complex. Imagine telling people that because they female their own fathers, husbands and brothers don’t value them.
OP has said her DH would want their daughter to cover her hair and they have discussed marriage. You would think he has whipped her daily and told her their daughter won’t be educated.

OP, I should also say that once your daughter is a certain age she will let her dad know how she feels about things. I’m sure he’ll listen and learn to compromise as we all do with our children. It’s a learning curve.

The text saying heads should be covered and clothing must not distress or offend others cannot be compared to wearing a rude slogan on a tshirt.
If Muslim women in some cultures don’t cover entirely eg Afghan women, they are deemed to offend and distress the men in the country.
Treated like princesses indeed!
OP do not allow your daughter to be brought up like this. Given you are even unwilling to convert yourself, you are as much of a hypocrite as your husband.