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Pregnancy

Talk about every stage of pregnancy, from early symptoms to preparing for birth.

October 2004 - Massive Moose - part 4

364 replies

beansprout · 29/09/2004 09:26

Ah - see what I did there? [wink}
Hope it's ok to start a new thread. Computer couldn't cope with the old one.

Ok here, but am on operation not-go-mad today as have been feeling pretty down. Friend over this morning and will waddle into town this afternoon. This will render me exhausted and will then sleep/graze until bedtime.
Have also watched far too many baby progs on Discovery Health. Have become an armchair expert in giving birth ("ooh, you don't want to do that love"). Will get my come uppance soon enough!!!! Eek!!

OP posts:
Are your children’s vaccines up to date?
beansprout · 14/10/2004 16:21

Hi lovely meece. Not a sausage here, let alone a Bean. It's as simple as dp "upgrading" the computer, which has taken most of the day with me getting antsy... "but I need to speak to the meece!!!"

But never mind that - huge congratulations Florence!!! So quick, so little pain relief!!! And a lovely, lovely name for dd too. Wonderful.
We haven't had a bad birth story yet - long may that continue!!
How did it go today Pigoletto?
I'm seeing the doc tomorrow to discuss induction. Yuck. Trying not to but can't help but feel disappointed

OP posts:
Bellie · 14/10/2004 16:30

Congratulations Florence and welcome to Isabel.

To fill in my details
Bellie ( age 31) Due 24 Oct first pregnancy still waiting - but will be out howling at the moon tonight!

Am still getting lots of period type pains but nothing else.....

piglit · 14/10/2004 16:33

Oh, Bean - I was sooooo sure!!

Just got back from m/w - cervix is too posterior (?) to do a sweep and I'm booked in for induction on Sunday night/Monday morning. Apparently things have started to happen but that doesn't mean db will be arriving any time soon. Am still achy and having these period pains. And I've eaten 3/4 of a pineapple today. What more can a moose do?

pupuce · 14/10/2004 16:41

Piglit - how many weeks will you be over the WE?
Harman is not on your list... don't know her age but she has a DD(7?), DS (5?), DD (3) going for a VBAC

piglit · 14/10/2004 17:04

Pupuce - 41 and 5 days on Monday.

pupuce · 14/10/2004 17:08

So why can't they wait until Wednesday to induce you ?????? 42 weeks is standard but some hospital start at 7 to 12 days ! Thereis NO reason for that... many of us had babies nearer to 42 weeks (especially a first). It makes a big difference (often) to be induced or not.... avoid it if you can. It is only 2 more days and gives yor body a chance!
The fact that your cervix was so posterior is a sign that you are not that close to being in labour.... take it to mean... baby isn't ready!

pupuce · 14/10/2004 17:12

I had my first at 41 +6 BTW

piglit · 14/10/2004 17:12

I understand that Pupuce but I have had very bad SPD and some days I can't even walk so am effectively housebound (or even chairbound) in agony, despite weekly chiro/osteo. In an ideal world I would have avoided induction altogether and I'm trying all the usual tricks - hopefully that'll bring it on....

pupuce · 14/10/2004 17:14

hmmm.... well I TOTALLY sympathise because I have ssevere SPD too !
Then PLEASE avoid the induction as you will be stuck on a bed and that's worse.....

What have you tried ?

pupuce · 14/10/2004 17:22

Things to try or think about (in order of effectivness IMO)

  1. State of mind has a huge impact on getting labour started... ask yourself why you don't want this labour to happen/baby to come... fears, anxieties,.... about baby, husband's view of you in labour, sex after baby, able to cope,...
  2. Is your baby's name picked, room ready,...
  3. Sex
  4. Accupuncture
  5. Reflexology
  6. Homeopathy - the remedy needed varies from woman to woman but is NOT caullophyllum
  7. Visualise the birth (I would actually put this in 1st) - I have done this with some of my clients... speak to someone about how you see the birth happening in some details, when you see contractions starting, will your waters go, etc - amazingly some women have EXACTLY what they described ! Voicing your fears and wishes is really very helpful.

Please feel free to ring me if you need a pet talk or want to talk about these ideas I am here
Of course I am awaiting Harman to pop - otherwise I am around.

piglit · 14/10/2004 17:46

Pupuce - this is fab. Thank you so much.

You are spot on with the state of mind thing - it is only really in the last day or so that I have felt mentally ready to go through with this. 2 and 3 are sorted and I will definitely try envisaging the birth - I have definitely been sticking my snout in the sand as far as the actual birth goes. I have also spoken to dh and he says that he totally understands and will support me 100% if I decide I don't want to go ahead with the induction.

Thank you so so much for all your wise words.

beansprout · 14/10/2004 17:55

Piglit - have they offered you a plan B if you don;t want to be induced at the weekend? So far, mine have only given me scare stories about placenta failure.

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pupuce · 14/10/2004 18:01

Beansprout if that is the case... ask for a scan... that WILL tell them of a placental problem (not putting you on a monitor). You are allowed to ask for this !!!!

Turtle35 · 14/10/2004 18:05

Bean I agree, they should NOT be making you feel guilty about placenta failure until it's proven not to be effective any more. That seems really unfair to me.

I am sorry you and piglit are going through this whole induction or not to induce palaver.

Good luck tonight - we will all be howling at the moon, envisaging our births to bring on contractions and get these babies moving.

pupuce · 14/10/2004 18:07

Send some of that positive thinking Harman's way - she has been quite uncomfortable ()sort of contracting irregularely).... she also hurt her pubis this afternoon (she has SPD) by missing a step.

Turtle35 · 14/10/2004 18:11

Pupuce you are an angel for thinking of us and giving us advice. I am definitley sending Moose thoughts to Harman for a speedy/gentle labour and birth tonight.

beansprout · 14/10/2004 18:11

Ouch! Hope Harman is ok.
So... what options do I have with this induction stuff? Can I insist on being scanned to check the placenta is ok? Is there a time when I just have to induced then? I just want a couple more days to give me every chance to be at the birth centre. I can be there before 42 weeks but after that have to go to a hospital (that I don't know) .

OP posts:
pupuce · 14/10/2004 18:14

Yes you can INSIST on a scan. It should not be a problem.
How many weeks are you ?
Try my tips though

beansprout · 14/10/2004 18:20

They have changed my dates so I will be considered 40+6 tomorrow when I have the discussion and they want to induce on Wed which will be 41+4. Do things change at 42 weeks re our rights?!

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pupuce · 14/10/2004 18:20

Beansprout I should add - for the sake of completeness that you do not have to be induced at all.... you can decline.... most (99.9% of women don't) but it is your right.
This page may make you smile, it's the the 10 months pregnancy page

pupuce · 14/10/2004 18:21

Cross posting.... no your rights are the same but the scare tactics increase!

beansprout · 14/10/2004 18:24

I think a lot of it does boil down to scare tactics. Have already had a few from the midwife.
Am trying to access the link but it needs a password - will sort that out and have a read!! Thanks for all your advice Pupuce.

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pupuce · 14/10/2004 18:30

Some of the stuff from that page :
Ten month pregnancies can be tiring and eroding, but for some women- it is simply how long we are intended to gestate.

Think of it this way: I was 11 when I got my first period; my best friend was 13. We "ripened" at different ages. People ripen prenatally at different ages, too: some women take as long as 46 weeks before their babies are ready to come out. (Women like me.)
In healthy, well-fed women long pregnancies don't lead to brain damaged, nutrient-starved babies! It's actually the opposite: my own "late" babies- my 6th and 7th children- are bright, precocious, healthy, darling, uniquely gifted in language- it would have been unthinkable to steal away their precious pregnancy time for my own convenience, or to follow some ridiculous, arbitrary medical timetable. (It would have been equally unthinkable to "naturally induce"- an oxymoron if there ever was one.)

And even though these babies were my biggest (10.8 lbs and 12.6 lbs respectively), their births were my least painful, most straightforward, and quickest: my body had lots of time to soften and prepare for birth, and when my time came, I was ready (as were my babies).
It is normal, natural and healthy to be a Ten Month Mama. (I myself am a child born when my mother was ten months pregnant!) I will always deeply regret once believing otherwise- and allowing four of my five hospital-borne children to be taken from me by induction drugs and manipulations before their true birthing times came. (The only child who was not induced was removed by cesaran section.)

Tips for Ten Month Mamas

-by Leilah McCracken and Gloria Lemay

AVOID SUGAR. This cannot be overstressed- sudden drastic peaks in maternal blood sugar can harm a baby. (I even know of one baby who died in utero after his mom, at 43 weeks with undiagnosed gestational diabetes, ate two ice cream sundaes). Drink no fruit juice either, and avoid the simple sugars found in refined foods, like white flour products.
Eat lots of high quality protein foods, and keep your blood iron levels high.
Eat lots of dark leafy greens for the nutrients, and to fight constipation.
No drugs!!! (Including alcohol and "natural herbals" that are smoked.)
Remember to exercise- swimming is best. Exercise has been shown to reduce the likelihood of developing gestational diabetes by HALF.
If you can't sleep, use that time to write, draw, paint, look at the night sky- connect with your creative and spiritual side.
Remember that the fruit that is taken before it is ripe is hard, bitter, and not able to bear seeds well that will propagate new life. Adding chemicals to ripen fruit leads to an inferior product as well. And when fruit is chemically treated to appear ripe, it tends to rot from the inside (right at the pit) outwards. This bizarre process is like how the effect of induction agents eat right through the posterior fornix of the cervix, causing back wall ruptures of the uterus.
Trust in your body, trust in your birth. Nature is brilliant; human minds are flawed.
Avoid people who give you fear "vibes"- even your mother.
Set your answering machine so your phone only rings once, and give updates in your message, if you like. DON'T PICK UP THE PHONE if you're feeling weak and sad inside- an invitation to callous people to start to hassle you!
Connect with other ten month mamas- we are few and far between with the current induction epidemic, but we do exist- and can offer great support to each other.
Rest if you want, walk if you want, eat if you want- do what feels right (as long as that doesn't involve chocolate bars).
Have lots of orgasms. They are relaxing, and wonderful for preparing your body for birth.
Some women like to drink red raspberry leaf tea (I never bother, personally.)
For most women, long pregnancies are safer and healthier than labor inductions- which carry far greater risks in and of themselves. If confronted by hostile people, tell them that labor inductions are dangerous, unproven, and put you and your baby at risk of a hazardous cascade of interventions- possibly leading to c-section. Also tell them that your baby is smart enough to pick her own birthday.
Remember that your body was smart enough to conceive, and then grow a child beautifully; it is also smart enough to know when it is the right time to give birth.

How can you tell your baby is doing well past 40 weeks of pregnancy?

Two ways.

One: heart rate- and you don't need a fetoscope. Have your partner put his ear to your lower belly with a toilet paper roll- let him move around from place to place to find a good spot. The baby's heart rate, if he is listening carefully and patiently, should be evident. 140-160 beats per minute is good.

Two: do the Cardiff fetal movement test. From 9am to 3pm count each of your baby's movements- there should be 10 movements at least in that time frame.

Quotes and Wisdom about Long Pregnancies

"Postdates" does not mean "postmature", and ensuring a good outcome

"Maternal weight loss is the key: it can tell us if the placenta is beginning to lose function (which causes the baby's rate of growth to slow, and the amniotic fluid to decrease. But as long as the baby is still gaining wieght, and there is plenty of amniotic fluid. then the kids can go a long time over dates. The little bit of weight a kid gains each week after 40 weeks isn't likely to be a factor on birth (rate of growth slows to about 4 - 6 oz a week after 39/40 weeks). A kid who is big at 41 is still going to be big at 43, and that little bit extra won't be a factor then- unless the fit was so tight it would have been a factor earlier. Only in the most rare case is 'size'- by itself- a factor in birth.

"But we need to watch kids after 43 weeks. The rate of stillbirth does start to rise- very slowly- after 43 weeks (NOT 'after forty' as some have been taught!). The rate rises more steeply with later dates- post 44, 45. We need to be watchful for signs of dysmaturity. The kid who has little amniotic fluid and is sort of 'shrink wrapped' in the womb may be in big big trouble within a few days, if not hours! He needs to get born! But most kids aren't like that. Most kids do great- and the calendar means nothing to them. Our job as midwives is to find the ones who are getting sick. I've had a good number of moms over the years go to 43 weeks- and a few over that- with no problems. I've also had the occasional kid who had GOOD dates and was on-time, yet looked like the baby we call 'post-dates' (clearly lost weight, little water and meconium stained).

"I think we should follow the lead of some texts which advocate using the term 'dysmature' for baby's who show that syndrome- because it can happen at any point, and the great majority of babies who are 'post-dates' are not 'post-mature' or 'dysmature'. The stats point out that less than 10% of babies at 43 completed weeks show any signs of 'post-maturity'."

Gail Hart, Midwife, Oregon
www.midwiferyeducation.org

Every Mom is different and has varied gestation cycles

"Most births that I attend end on their own from 40-42 weeks. I have done a few that were 43-44 weeks. In my opinion, let the Mom go unless there is a cause to intervene, besides the normal, 'I want to have my baby now'. : ) Remembering that two weeks either way of the 'estimated' due date is very normal. Then add that every Mom is different and has varied gestation cycles. Who are we to say in a normal healthy pregnancy: 'you need to have your baby now'? In most cases, it takes a lot of encouragement from me for the moms. As we all know, the last weeks and days feel like forever and when there was still no babe, moms would be very anxious (to have babe in arms). So, lots of encouraging words, lots of humor, and lots of patience!" -Jill Peck-Colin, CPM Las Vegas, NV

Prond Mama Apple Tree, letting her babies grow

"Babies really need to 'ripen' in their own way- regardless of whether that fits an arbitrary timetable or not.

"Imagine a tree filled with apples. Now we all know that some apples ripen early, many at the same time, some much later- we all know about how one apple will just stay on the tree for days and days- even weeks- after all the others have fallen off. I have personally waited for apples like that- and gently shaking the tree has no effect on getting them to come off. Whacking the apple with a stick would make it fall off... but the apple would not be at its most delectable. So- I wait, and my reward is a sweet, big, juicy apple.

"Well hitting the apple to get it off before its ripe time is like inducing a baby because of 'postdates'- making it be born just because other babies mature earlier. And I would rather get hit as a baby than be made to be born before my time, before my systems and brain have 'ripened' to what they need to be for my own optimal health and wellbeing. Induction is a grave insult to the baby.

"My own babies are like those apples that take so long to come off. I wait and I wait- and when the time is right, my babies come down to me- as perfect as their internal schedules dictate they should be. And, writing this in my tenth month of my tenth pregnancy, I'm proud to be that strong, healthy mama apple tree- and I will nourish my newest baby as long as he or she needs." -Leilah McCracken, March, 2002

Lots of late babies in her practice

"I have a good number of late for dates babies every year and that I find a healthy, well-fed woman usually grows a baby longer, and that's not necessarily all bad. Women just need and want reassurance that it's OK. I've assisted women as late as 43 and 44 weeks at home with no repercussions, but I think it's a good idea to have a good score with a biophysical profile and/or non stress test. I have also seen women birth in hospitals on my L&D unit (years before my midwifery calling) birth that late both fine and not so fine, yet most did birth without a hitch.

"Historically, I've heard of fine babies birthed at 10+ calendar months. The Christian missionary Nora Lam from China birthed her son after being in a concentration camp years ago (verified by Chinese doctors at that time) at exactly 12 months. Apparently, it wasn't 'safe'for her to let go of her baby boy during her interment. Once she was allowed to leave, she successfully gave birth to him." -Lynda Sizemore CM, RM, Colorado

Meconium in postdates babies

"The philosophy that women should be induced to prevent having a baby with meconium in the amniotic fluid ignores the possibility that the induction causes the passing of meconium. I have seen a lot of late babies in my career. We seem to grow them big and late up here in the Pacific Northwest, just like the trees. I very seldom see meconium in the amniotic fluid of 42 week plus babies.

"I associate meconium in the amniotic fluid with smokers (dope or nicotine) in the few cases I do see. Every time a woman smokes a cigarette it has the effect that putting a pillow over the face of a little baby would have. When the baby is getting mature it can evacuate the bowel as a response to oxygen deprivation. You know the expression 'scared the s_ out of him' - when we're scared, smothered or choked we will poop or have diarrhea as a defense. When they used to hang prisoners by the neck, they knew that they would poop once the oxygen was cut off.

"The thing about meconium is that it's not really a problem. It's a wake-up sign for the practitioner to watch for distress but it's estimated (don't know by who) that only 10% of the time it is distress. The other 90% of the time it means nothing. So, to induce thinking you're going to prevent it is ridiculous." -Gloria Lemay, Vancouver BC. For more about meconium, go here.

Babies mature at their own rate

"Some babies take longer to bake. Just think about babies' development after birth: there is great variation in when they reach certain milestones of growth, activity, achievement, etc. Why do we expect them to all mature at the same rate in utero?

"I have done a birth for a woman an absolutely-known conception date- she went 42 1/2 wks and had a term-looking baby, clear fluid, lots of vernix. I did a birth for a woman with twins this Spring- Baby #1 weighed 7 lbs and looked full-term. Baby #2 weighed 4 lbs12oz and looked about 35-36 wks. They were born at 39.1 wks. NO QUESTION about any of those conception dates/gestational ages." -Patrice Bobier, Midwife in Michigan

Letting births happen in their own time

"There is a sort of chemical ?combination lock' that starts labor. Everything has to be lined up just right to ?unlock' a good labor pattern. When we interfere with that, it can be as frustrating as using the wrong combination of numbers to open a locked safe." -Midwife Gail Hart, "The Birthkit", Autumn 2000

Should women be induced when they go "postdates"?

"Women in good health (non-smokers, with normal blood pressure, and no history of diabetes) are best left to have the baby by Nature's clock. There is no SAFE induction method." -Gloria Lemay, private birth attendant

Advice for women with long pregnancies

"With my last (my 7th) I was in prodomal labour for a good 6 weeks, and she came 4 weeks later than all the rest. She decided to come once I had given up watching and waiting for her. Let yourself relax and do stuff just for you, it may be the last time for quite a while. Enjoy those last little kicks and movements. I missed them almost right after the birth, and feel some regret for not enjoying the last days of pregnancy. It was probably my last." -Jamie

Lovely blossoms open when they're ready

"Attending births is like growing roses. You have to marvel at the ones that just open up and bloom at the first kiss of the sun, but you wouldn't dream of pulling open the petals of the tightly closed buds, and forcing them to blossom to your time line. " -Gloria Lemay

From a doctor regarding postmature babies

"In the eight years when I practiced homebirths as a registered doctor, out of the 1,190 bookings I had 106 postmature babies (more than 42 weeks) of which three went to 48 weeks, a few more went to 46 weeks, and lots went to 44 weeks- and all these babies fared very well. Of those 106 babies, only one fitted the textbook description of postmaturity, looking like a little wrinkled old man with stained skin, but that baby was extremely alert, and insisted on looking around the room instead of suckling.

"What decided me to do no inductions for postmaturity was a very early mother in my homebirth series who refused induction despite my anxiety, went to 44 and a half weeks and gave birth to a chubby pink, strong healthy baby, with absolutely no sign of postmaturity. Babies mature at different rates, not exactly at 40 weeks, just as we adults do not become senile at seventy years." -John Stevenson, MD, "The Birthkit", Autumn 2000

Note that Dr. Stevenson also advises prospective parents to not tell family and friends exact "due dates", but to be vague, with "due seasons" to avoid being pestered by nervous well-wishers.

God Knows Babies

"I've come to realize that a God who is big enough to so perfectly form little eyes and ears and a little round nose and a heart and lungs and every single part of a little person is certainly big enough to work out the details of their coming into the world." -Vicki in Mars, PA

About castor oil inductions and impatient midwives

"Inducing with castor oil isn't safe. Once swallowed the castor oil is hydrolized by intestinal lipases to recinoleic acid which stimulates intestinal secretion, decreases glucose absorption and increases intestinal motility. Castor oil is used in lipsticks, too. Many women who can tolerate the oil quite well on their lips get a reaction on their mouths if the oil converts to recinoleic acid. My question to a midwife who says castor oil is not absorbed is 'Would you please provide me with references for that statement'.

"It's not so long ago that birthing women were given soap suds enemas (high, hot and a helluva lot) because someone started a rumour that soap was not absorbed through the colon. We know this is not true and that this black page in Obstetric history is best forgotten. Too many women have turned from saying 'My doctor says' to saying 'My midwife says'. Take responsibility for your and your family's health. It's fine to respect professionals but ask for references on everything you're not l00 % sure of and use your internet to scope things out. There is so much crap that passes for science without anyone questioning it.

"On the subject of all the women in a hurry to get their babies born: I was 3 weeks 'overdue' with my oldest daughter. What really helped me was that I had lunch with a friend at about 8 mos pregnancy. Her son had been born 6 months before. When she saw me walk in the restaurant all hugely pregnant she said 'Oh, Gloria, when I see you I miss my pregnancy so much'. I knew that one day I'd be saying that, too, so I made up my mind to enjoy it as long as poss. and I'm so glad I did. Six months from now you'll be wondering what the rush was. I worry about women taking castor oil because you also give your baby castor oil when you take it through the gut. This means the baby will get diarhea and pass mec, too. then you're into all the transports for mec.

"The other thing about self-inducing is that you end up with erratic labours that stop and start and are difficult to complete. I just attended a Coroner's inquest here into the death of a full term baby girl. The midwife stripped membranes and got the woman into labour but she had no urge to push. She was in second stage a long time and then her perineum wouldn't stretch. They cut an episiotomy to get the baby out. Baby had bleeding in the brain and only breathed on life support. Later, Mom's placenta had to be manually removed because it wouldn't come out. It seemed to me that this woman's body wasn't ready to give birth and that the membrane stripping caused an emergency response in her body that produced dilation but eventually wore off.

"Bottom line: be patient with your little babes and yourself." -Gloria Lemay

A cervix isn't made "ripe" by induction drugs or Foley catheters

"I recommend using caution with language and question the use of the word 'ripening' to describe the process of irritating the mother's body by inserting a foreign object. This should properly and descriptively be called 'Foley catheter invasion and irritation'. Prostaglandin gels applied to the cervix should be more honestly described as 'chemically altering the consistency of the cervix'. THERE IS NO RIPENING HAPPENING WITH EITHER OF THESE METHODS.

"Midwives have used the term ripening to describe a NATURAL process of the cervical changes of late pregnancy. We take a word from the plant kingdom because it is similar to the slow, harmonious process that happens to a plum as it turns from green and hard to darker and darker purple, soft, mushy and sweet. If one puts a whole bunch of plums in a box when they are green and hard and sprays them with chemicals, it is possible that in a few days they will look like dark purple ripe fruit. However, one taste will tell you that Nature had nothing to do with the end product.

"Let's not fool ourselves in birth either. This whole hospital induction thing has got to stop. Whatever area we work in we can call these invasions by their proper names- irritation and chemical altering. Lying about what's going on perpetuates the practice." -Gloria Lemay

*Note- for studies about induction dangers, go here. The studies show that labor induction leads to c-sections, shoulder dystocia, and instrumental deliveries.

The baby will say when it's time to be born

"Birth is more than a cervix opening and a uterus squeezing a baby out. It's more than the nuts and bolts mechanics of a baby exiting a vagina- there is such a complex dance of physiological, emotional, mental, and spiritual elements involved in birth. And when this balance is thrown off, distressing things begin to happen with the baby.

"When a baby chemically announces to her mother that it's time for the birth- and many people believe that the signal to begin the birth process comes from the baby- she does it when her body systems are strong, and ready to meet the extra-uterine world. She will not instigate the birth process when her lungs and digestive systems are still immature... and even a few days of maturity will make the difference for a baby's maturity and ableness to survive.

"It is the height of human arrogance to dictate birth- time, mode, speed- to a baby. They have their own needs and innate demands (as in length of birth process); there is no "one size fits all" in birth. It is crucial that this is respected- especially by mothers! We must learn to respect our babies at birth- the most important, crucial event of their lives. The events surrounding birth last a lifetime... as does the respect and dignity a mother learns to give her child." -Leilah McCracken

beansprout · 14/10/2004 18:40

Wow, thanks for all this info Pupuce. Will muse and discuss with dp before we head off tomorrow.... food for thought.

OP posts:
geogteach · 14/10/2004 19:22

Big congrats florence - that is the name I want for a girl (DH not convinced). Bean I know how you feel, at the moment i'm still going with the fact that the last 2 times booking the induction seemed to be what I needed to ensure going into labour before it happened if you know what I mean. That basically leaves tomorrow and Sat for me to get my act together!

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