Can't bear this anymore, is termination at 15 16 weeks just going to make it all worse?

[Sleeplessinnorthlondon]

I'm going to delete my profile soon as so ashamed of all of what's happened but desperate for any advice anyone can offer. In summary, conceived when thought couldn't, just about to start ivf, and didn't know. Had two different due dates from different scans but looks like could have drunk heavily 16, 17 and 18 dpo. Stopped as soon as found out but can't shake the guilt despite doctors all telling me it would probably be fine. Would never have terminated for downs or any condition the child was going to have anyway, but cannot bear idea of having spoilt life chances of child that would have been healthy through stupidity. Tried counselling, midwife, friends, all been so kind but can't shake terror and guilt and suspect will never shift and will be terrible mother when born as so anxious and guilty. Just can't bear any of this any more, none of the help I've tried to access is working and Marie stopes have said they can organise an abortion this week. Will mean hurting friends, family and above all darling darling husband but he has said will support me if it's the only way forward. So so desolate and terrified, everyone around me saying this is mental health issue not physical and probably right but in no state to bring child into the world like this anyway. Has anyone been in the same boat? Did the termination help or make it worse? Please help me.

Bit of an update. Hugh from wed lasted to thurs but had few wobbly patches since. Today at 11 booked into psych assessment at the hospital. On some very strange level want them to keep me in, just to take away all the responsibility and fear I have that I'm doing the wrong thing not terminating and just give me something to block out all the highs and lows as God knows what damage this stress is doing to the baby but I also don't want to take anything harmful and above all, having tried and failed to self refer to this service through my midwife twice before that they will just pack me off with some kind words and reassurance. Going on my own to this one as weirdly think dh being there calms me and want then to see am not calm at all. Really hope this helps, will be back!

Hi Sleepless, Very pleased to hear that you have had a couple of better days despite a couple of wobbles...

Maybe take a copy of your posts to this thread with you to your appointment? Along with any other threads you have posted on the subject - means you can cover a lot of ground with the doctor and they will have a comprehensive idea of how you have been feeling - I don't know about you but sometimes I find it really hard to remember everything at those types of appointment!

I either forget stuff altogether, or I minimise stuff which isn't very helpful either - don't be scared to 'unleash the crazy' and feel like you have to be in control (it is a very British thing to want to maintain control and stiff upper lip I think - not helpful in these situations).

I am sure they will be able to find you some medication to help level your mood which isn't harmful at all if that is what you want and by the same token if you don't want to take anything, they will be helpful and understanding with the alternatives.

The people you see today will be on your side and want to help you and want you to feel better. If you feel like they are not taking you seriously or are packing you off with kind words etc, please do say something - make sure you are satisfied with the outcome of your appointment, even if it means you ask for a second opinion or kick up a bit of a fuss - this is really important stuff!

Just always keep at the front of your mind that despite the tough time you are having at the moment and the highs and lows you are experiencing, you are doing a great job seeking help and being determined to make things better. You are fighting for yourself and for your baby and you are being very brave. x

Glad things are improving and that you're seeking help

Your comment about wanting hospital to keep you in to take away responsibility says it all really - this is a broader anxiety issue and I'm sure they will be able to help. Best of luck! And well done! And yes, unleash the emotional torrent! It will help get your message across.

I can see that this thread has moved on - but just to chip in with another voice of 'baby is fine - look after yourself'.

DS was the worlds worst hangover.... Until I figured to do a test.... Violin playing, grammar school flying, loving to his sisters....

The first few month or two are a highly regulated process. To a very large extent - the only two possibilities are that baby is developed correctly - or baby is unviable and you miscarry. IQ and such like aren't relevant discussions until well into second trimester - in the first trimester it's more like 'webbed feet or fingers'.

Yy to all that Hippymama said. You have done a brilliant job in recognising that you need support and reaching out for help. (I too suffered from crippling anxiety in pregnancy.) The fact that you are so terrified of anything going wrong is testimony to how much you care about your baby already (as well as a bit of that needing-to-be-in-control stuff that goes on!)

Keep on looking after you, and letting other people support you. Having a baby is a very humbling process as we realise that we can't be in control of everything - there will be anxious time and wobbles, now and in the future. But anxiety is treatable and in dealing with it now, you will find it a lot easier to recognise and to treat sensibly in the months and years to come - along with all of those nappies/sleepless nights/bumps and bruises and smile and laughter too.

Very best of luck, Sleepless. I have a friend who had antenatal depression/anxiety and it was very scary to watch - she became obsessively focused on a set of fears and could barely contain her panic. I was very, very worried about her. She did get effective help, though, and though she was treated as high risk for PND she was actually fine once the baby was born - sailed through early motherhood. I hope that is your journey, too

I drank heavily in the before I was 8 weeks as didn't know and baby is absolutely fine. I hope you get the right advice and counselling from the right people

Wanted to leave it a good week before posting in case jinxed things, still far from totally sure all will be fine, but so so much better than this time last week! Much, much calmer, in control of mood and just getting by with amazing support and lots of techniques of self distraction! Almost believe the now (wait for it) five ob gyns who have reassured me, two at my own hospital (love UCH, so amazing), one private, two through friend, even though can't quite and just making the most of all the support. Thank you all so so so much for your support, been hugely hugely welcomed, thank you :) xxxxx

Brilliant news Sleepless, I'm so chuffed for you
Please keep updating when you can, I'd love to hear how you get on xx

Well that is going to be one MASSIVELY loved baby when it arrives. And actually - really - that's all that matters in the end.

great news!!. . I'm very happy for you x

Ditto above posters

Keep up the good work sleepless! It's a hard journey but so worth while and rewarding. X

To the OP, I am the product of a mum who found out she was pregnant at 26 weeks way back in the 80's (I'm almost 26) at the time she was 16 & a bit of a wild child, she was doing all the stupid things teenagers do- drinking excessively, smoking, partying & even going on rollercoasters. She had also lost a lot of weight. As soon as she found out she was terrified about the impact it would have on me, much like you're experiencing. I can tell you that I am (and have always been) perfectly fine, I really feel nurture plays a far bigger role than we can imagine. Also a friend of mine has just celebrated her daughters 1st birthday, 2 days before finding out shews expecting she was (excuse the expression) arse over tits drunk & her daughter is happy & healthy. Go easy on yourself & just look after both you & the baby, I am proof that a few mistakes in early pregnancy are not the be all & end all. I really hope this helps & you find d some solace xx

Lovely to hear from you Sleepless and with more good news! Long may everything continue to improve for you. x

Suddenly had huge setback and think have to rebook the termination. Was feeling fine, almost calm and sane for a week and then today remembered some horrible thing I'd read before and decided to check it to calm myself down as thought would be in frame of mind to just dismiss it. Big mistake. The details are below. Did anyone here drink, as far as they know, heavily, precisely 18-21 days after conception and have a healthy child?

back in despair and beyond terrified.

There's a prominent academic called Sterling Clarren who is v respected in Canada and not some crank professor:

www.scribd.com/doc/214172610/Dr-Sterling-Clarren-Retirement-Announcement

cfri.ca/our-research/researchers/results/Details/sterling-clarren

Anyway he's done extensive research using macaque monkeys and proven that day 19-21 is key for facial irregularities consistent with fasd diagnoses and that those facial irregularities are consistent with brain damage. There's a few places I've found this but it's best summarised in the second video here:

Summarised here: 2nd video

whatdoino-steve.blogspot.co.uk/2010/02/fasd-brief-primer-with-dr-sterling_20.html

I know the last day I drank was day 18, and earlier scans suggest possibly earlier but few things cannot shift from my mind:

1. I drank up to 30 units on Sunday so even though stopped by 7pm there would definitely be alcohol in my blood through most of day 19: this NHS website says 3 hrs to break down 3 unit glass of wine so realistically as started at 1.30 likely to be up to mid afternoon day 19 that all was ok.

1. If this research is right, what is the nature of the exposure at day 19 that is so different at day 18? Esp when was drinking 16 and 17 before? Just can't understand how biologically not risky even though implanted as blood supply shared, cells rapidly developing etc. Know neurulation starts at day 19, so maybe that's it but in which case point 1 still on my mind.

Sleepless - I'm not a scientist, but think about it logically. How many children / people have you seen walking around with these FASD facial irregularities you are so worried about?? I'm not sure I've ever seen anyone like that. And yet how many people do you think drink heavily before they know they are pregnant? Must be absolutely loads of them, right?

There are lots of people on here who have told you their stories of getting drunk early in pregnancy, with a perfectly healthy baby as the outcome.

Please don't do anything rash. Print out the article that is concerning you and discuss it with your doctor ASAP. Talk it through with someone who understands the science. I'm sure they will put your mind at rest.

Sleepless Step away from the internet.

This is a setback - nothing more.

This is the return of an intrusive thought and you can get rid of the intrusive thought using the techniques you have been using. Do not use the internet to seek reassurance - it will only make it worse.

You can't take the information provided via the internet, from this one non UK doctor / person who has never met you or discussed your situation with you over all the information given to you by the doctors, nurses, psychologists and splendid Mumsnetters which has been tailored to you and to your situation.

You can ride out this panic attack lovely - it is just a bump in the road. You are doing tremendously well. Remember the techniques you have been taught and try to see your GP / Midwife / therapist as a matter if urgency.

And keep posting here for support of course.

There is no risk to your baby. This feeling will pass. xx

Blood supply is not shared.

Please stop looking for things, you know that everything is just fine. Doctors have told you. People here have told you. What's happening is that now you have relaxed, the anxiety has kicked in again.

anxiety is a bugger, it really is. My DH had serious health anxiety based on something a v Jr newly qualified gp told him (that as he had psoriasis he MUST also have arthritis). Even after medical tests and countless gp trips and a blood test showing zero signs and no genetic markers for the type of arthritis he was worried about, he kept revising the throwaway comment from that gp. She only said it as he'd gone to see her about tonsillitis and winced when he stood up as he'd pronged his knee on the bike before. She didn't even examine him. But he found fantastic life changing success from CBT. Every time he went back to that worry (and others) that was ruling his life, the CBT kicked in.

I'm only telling this because it could be something that might help? Certainly stepping away from the Internet and talking to your family and your Dr or midwife again will help.

Worried the tone of my post is off - please see it as full of empathy for you.

Also lovely, "he's done extensive research using macaque monkeys" You are not having a monkey, you are having a baby.

Macaque monkeys are not the same as human beings - they don't process alcohol the same way, they don't have the same gestation period and aside from a love of selfies, (rack.3.mshcdn.com/media/ZgkyMDE0LzA4LzA3LzQ4L01hY2FxdWVTZWxmLjBkZTJkLmpwZwpwCXRodW1iCTEyMDB4OTYwMD4/cd62b0ae/c60/Macaque-Selfie-2.jpg) they are not the same as us at all.

Try not to look at any more of these things regardless of how strong you are feeling - it isn't worth it.

Remember your techniques xx

rack.3.mshcdn.com/media/ZgkyMDE0LzA4LzA3LzQ4L01hY2FxdWVTZWxmLjBkZTJkLmpwZwpwCXRodW1iCTEyMDB4OTYwMD4/cd62b0ae/c60/Macaque-Selfie-2.jpg

Link didn't work :-(

STOP

Sleepless step out of this story for one moment. Replace the topic of this paper with X. X is convincing precisely because you have spun a story where X is convincing.

I've been there. I have been absolutely, terrifying convinced - I had a cancer. Because, could anyone guarantee me that I didn't have it? I vomited out of fear. I wanted to die before it killed me. Every paper I read convinced me more and more I had it.

Sleepless, my brain okayed these terrifyingly academic, articulate, organised, convincing games with me and pushed me to almost take my life.

Same story with you, slightly different.

I eventually came out of it when I stopped going to the doctors for reassurance. The reassurance was in the end damaging me. So I will not reassure you. I will tell you that you are in the middle of a self convincing powerfully clear and calm disruption of your mind.

Do one thing. Please don't believe yourself. Please. Please. Please. Please don't believe yourself. Believe someone else. A student, a child, a partner, a puppy, anyone but yourself. That's how I emerged out of my condition. Every time I read something that kicked my stomach and told me I had the cancer, i clung on to my bed and said I will not listen to this voice. I will not seek reassurance. BEcause it was never about the cancer, it was my brain messing everything up.

Similarly this is not about the drinking. Or the baby.you may think it is. But it itnt.

Macaque monkeys have a gestation period of 165 days or so.

Humans more like 280 days.

If i've got my maths right, day 19 for a monkey is about 32 days for humans.

Even if i'm a bit out, the equivalent of day 19 for a monkey is much further on for us.

Please stop torturing yourself sleepless. By your logic nearly every baby born in September would have facial abnormaties! (Being conceived around December)

I saw this thread a couple of days ago, and can honestly say it's actually really upsetting to see you torturing yourself like this!

When I was pregnant with DS1, I went to a few mental raves before I found out HE'S FINE!!!!!! He's old enough to go raving himself now, but thankfully doesn't. But he's in his late teens and he's absolutely fine!!!

I'm expecting DS2 in September, and before I found out, there was Christmas, with all that cheese and wine! Some weeks I consumed disgraceful amounts of wine but I wasn't to know. And I've seen his wriggly scans and HE'S FINE!!!

I'm sorry if I seem shouty, but look at the horrific situations healthy babies are born into all around the world. In absolute poverty, in refugee camps, to chronic addicts, into awful DV, to women in comas.....

It's time to forgive yourself x