Noisy toddler next door

[Sukie272]

I live in a small flat and my next-door neighbours have a toddler who is about 2. This child seems to stay up all night as well as most of the day- he screams, cries, yells, bangs toys on the walls and runs around their flat constantly, until around 3am.
The walls are very thin, so he wakes me up repeatedly. After 6 months of being woken 4-5 times a night (the sound of him running on hardwood floors sounds like someone is hamnering nails into the floor) I complained to landlord. He agreed this level of noise at night is unacceptable and spoke to the family. For a few weeks the noise calmed down and they seemed to make an effort to keep him away from the partition wall at night, but now the noise is unbearable again.
I've tried politely talking to the parents (who are Eastern European and don't speak much English), I've also put leaflets under their door about SureStart and other sources of help. At times I bang on the wall in desperation. I just want some peace and quiet!
Is it normal for a 2-year-old to cry for several hours every day, and to run around screaming for hours at a time, several times a night? I'm worried he may be being abused/neglected... should I contact Social Services? The parents rarely take him out of the flat, so maybe he is just bored?
I'm in first trimester of pregnancy and currently off work sick, so I can't escape the noise even in the daytime. I feel so angry that these people let their child cause such a disturbance! Earplugs make little difference, and I can hear him in every room in my flat, even though my bedroom is not next to the partition wall.
What can I do about this? Does anyone have a similar experience?

I would feel bad if my dc were doing that all night and keeping the neighbors awake. I would stay with the child, and put a stair gate up to try and minimize it. Which is what I did with both my dc. I get that its not easy, but I would do my best to minimize the impact on other people wherever it was possible.

coolaschmoola, perfect summary of toddle-bots and life with them

Excellent post coola.

One I could have written as well. Oh, how smug I was, sitting on the train on the way to work reading Gina F*. Mine was going to be that child sleeping through at 10 days old. Oh yes.

Fast forward, and she finally slept through, for the first time ever, at 4.

You sound unbearable op, after all the comments you refuse to acknowledge you might have to reconsider your stance.

Please move and leave this family in peace

I disagree entirely, Op you have the right to enjoy your home. Children need us to teach them pro social behaviour, not expect the world to join us in ignoring it. Night and day of that is not good for you and not good for the child. Parenting toddlers is damn hard but it's a choice you make when you have a child, not one your neighbours make.

My daughter was like this all night, every night from when she could escape her bed (at 1.5) until she was about 6. I tried everything to get her to sleep and stay in her bed but nothing worked. I was exhausted and felt like the worst parent in the world. This wasn't helped by everyone and their dog voicing their opinion that they wouldn't let their child behave like that . DD was diagnosed with autism when she was 15.

I cannot begin to describe what my reaction to passive aggressive leaflets through the door would have been as I don't want to be banned. As for the helpful banging on the wall ...

OP ignore all the 'just you wait' comments. Contrary to what some posters would have you believe not all toddlers scream, cry and tantrum day and night . You're neighbours sound extremely inconsiderate and that level of noise through the night is totally unacceptable. True, crying can't always be stopped but allowing a child to run around banging on walls until 3am every night is highly antisocial. I would be speaking to LL and environmental health re the level of noise and yes quite possibly SS.

I feel for both you and your neighbours. I have neighbours whose dogs bark constantly and being disturbed all the time can really get you down so I sympathise. However, I think you have underestimated how difficult it is to keep a toddler quiet.

Not long after we moved into this house I fell pregnant and decided not to complain to the neighbours about the dogs as I suspect they were in for more disturbance than we were once the baby was born - and I was right. You may find once your child arrives that it's helpful to have neighbours who understand how difficult it is to have a noisy child and little sleep.

I agree with PPs that pushing leaflets through their door is overstepping the mark and for parents who already may be at the end of their tether, it would be unwelcome interferring rather than helpful assistance.

The only way to definitely solve the problem is to move. However, you then run the risk of moving next to people who don't understand how noisy newborns can be and find someone is putting SureStart leaflets through your door in order to be helpful.

HedgehogsDontBite, what makes you think leaflets are passive-aggressive? To me, they are a way of discreetly sharing information and resources, of signposting people to services that could help. This family may have been unaware that services like SureStart existed, and been struggling in isolation. Not everyone has access to Internet or a social circle. If a service has potential to make a big difference to a child's quality of life, surely it's better to provide a leaflet than do nothing just in case it upsets his parents? (The leaflets came after I had tried to speak to his parents on several occasions).

MrsCs I agree completely that 'children need us to teach them pro-social behaviour, not expect the world to join us in ignoring it'.
I'm shocked that so many people think their neighbours should just put up with constant noise and sleep deprivation! This seems a very self-centred, defeatist attitude to parenting.

Mamadoc, I appreciate people are 'under no obligation to parent the way you think best' but I do feel people need to choose a parenting style that is appropriate to the type of housing they live in, and minimise disturbance to others. Choosing to let your child play and run noisily all night with no bedtime may be fine if you live in a detached house, but not when you live in a flat with thin walls! When I'm working I have to get up at 5:30am- I don't have the luxury of sleeping in late or cat-napping during the day. Individual families need to be aware of the impact their parenting style has on other people in the building! It's part of living in a community and having basic respect for others.
If parents don't agree with having bedtimes, they could at least enforce 'quiet play' at night so neighbours can get some sleep. My landlord agrees this level of noise at night is unacceptable and has warned them in past, but short of evicting them (or moving them to a ground-floor flat) there is not much he can do. Luckily I rent, so I can move, but I feel very sorry for the people who move in and find themselves stuck in a 6-month contract! And frankly, why should one family have the right to drive others out of their homes?

GoooRooo, interesting point about your neighbours dogs.

If I was to get a puppy, and I let it run around all night on wooden floors, constantly barking, howling, banging into the partition wall etc, I'm sure the neighbours would complain after 6 months! They would expect me to do something about it, keep it away from their wall at night, train it to be quiet at night so it didn't keep waking them up.
Imagine how they would feel if I said I didn't agree with training my puppy! If I said it's my right to let it run around barking all night and disturbing them, and that they should move if they didn't like it!

How is the responsibility of having a child less than that of having a dog?

They are a way of sharing information if they or advice/help has been requested. When they're stuck through the letterbox by the neighbour who bangs on the wall and who you know thinks you're a rubbish parent then it on a par with an annonymous poison pen letter.

One question for you OP - do you think they, the family, get any sleep?

Children are very different to dogs - I have both! My dog will sit on command and will bark when I tell her to (stopping her barking if she is excited is less easy). Children are much less trainable in my experience - they are individuals with wills of their own and with the best will in the world if they are having a tantrum very little can stop them. If I were the parents I would be horrified that I was upsetting the neighbours and frustrated about it, but would hope the neighbour would understand that there is not much that can be done about it. They are not toddlers forever, so this stage will pass but it will not be a matter of days or weeks.

Personally, I would consider moving. The last thing you need when you have a newborn with irregular sleeping patterns is noisy neighbours who keep you up during those short periods when your baby is asleep. I speak from experience. It's enough to tip you over the edge.
Like coola I thought I knew it all before I had I child of my own. Dd1 had night terrors for years and was up at night screaming the house down. We spoke to Drs, HVs, nothing worked, she just grew out of it. The thing is OP, you have NO IDEA what it's like having a toddler and NO IDEA whats up with child I particular so I would refrain so being quite so judgemental.

Move.

I'm calling MN bingo now

Foreigners - check
Comparing babies to dogs - check
Inconsiderate neighbours - check
Passive aggressive leafleting - check

It just needs some aspect of parking wars and a MIL comment or two.

Whatever you do, don't put any more leaflets under the door. They don't know you mean it kindly. To your neighbours it will jsut mean someone who doesn't want to identify herself is watching and disapproving.

Bof a lot of commenters DO have though. My lo had a few weeks of terrible nightmares. I used to pick him up, take him the furthest room from any adjoining wall and cuddle him until he calmed before returning him to his room. MY son, MY responsibility

I wrote a post this morning about the basics of child cognitive mental and social development, but it failed to post and had to set off for work. I suppose it was for the best, reading the majority of responses on this thread, it would have fallen on deaf ears.

Ftr, I do have a very good idea what it's like to have a toddler. I have two sons with a 17 month age difference between them and I have never experienced running around and banging on walls at 3am.

I know people joke about the dogs and toddlers thing but there are actually a lot of similarities.

Some are easier to 'train' than others.

Some of their behaviour will be determined by genetics, some by environmental factors.

Both need regular exercise, interaction and stimulation.

Both need boundaries.

It is actually possible that this child is not having his needs met.

MrsCs, you seem a very considerate, responsible neighbour with respect for the people living around you. It's a shame more people don't have this attitude to parenting.

Hedgehog, I hardly think an information leaflet is comparable to a poison-pen letter
When I issued the leaflets I attached a card with a polite message explaining I was unable to sleep, that I have to get up at 5:30am and requesting they try to reduce noise after 11pm. I included a brief summary of local SureStart services and wished them well. I added my name, flat number and mobile number, asking them to contact me if they wanted help or to discuss the issue further. So it was not anonymous, although in hindsight I do see how the leaflets could have come across as patronising or annoying.

RigglinJigglin... I'm not familiar with the rules of bingo; perhaps you could explain them?

PrettyWhiteGuitar, reading the posts is certainly an eye-opening experience. I do feel more empathy towards my neighbours having been made aware of different people's experiences with toddlers.
Yet what the posts also highlight is just how many people lack respect and consideration for neighbours, or feel their child is so out of control they cannot possibly reduce noise at night. It also highlights how many people try to shelve responsibility for their child disturbing others! Your child is your responsibility, and while neighbours are powerless to reduce your child's noise, parents always have option of trying different approaches until they find something that works.

It is also inspiring that many people here DO take responsibility for raising their toddler in a way that minimises disturbance to neighbours. Simple measures like taking child into a different room, using stairgates, teaching which behaviours are appropriate etc are clearly effective for some, suggesting it is not 'inevitable' that toddlers run around screeching and banging walls until 3am every night.

Oddfodd... I believe the parents sleep from around 3am-9am, as this is the only time the toddler is ever quiet for an extended period of time, though he is sometimes active from 6am. Or maybe they are accustomed to his noise and are able to sleep through it. Their kitchen and living room adjoin my wall, and it seems he is most active in these rooms at night.

Try my best op! Really hope you get something sorted x

Some of these responses are absolutely insane! Implying OP is unreasonable for complaining about being woken up several times a night, every single night.
No, it is not normal for toddlers to run around the house screaming in the middle of the night. Yes, parents can prevent this. And even if they can't, its not OP's problem to deal with or put up with. Neighbours should be trying to minimise disruption to others.

As for all the "it must be hard for the parents, why don;t you think about them" nonsense, are you on glue? "move and let these parents live in peace" what peace? They are not very good parents and even worse neighbours!

OP, I feel for you. You are not the bad guy here, your neighbours are. I would move if you can (and hope you don't move next to half the people on this thread!) since there isn't really anything you can do, unfortunately.

coola I love your post- do we share the same child?? Absolutly spot on.

op I think you need to show a little empathy towards your neighbours. You have no idea if they are trying to establish a routine, if their child does not know sleep, if they can afford baby gates, if they are that sleep deprived they are just going the best they can...

Yo have no idea in the world how hard it is to get a child to sleep that doesn't want too and no amount of PA notes passed through the door 'requesting' when they must be quiet will work. The probally actually think 'sod you!' now.

I love the fact that you think that toddlers are able to learn to have a social awareness brilliant!

its the parents that need social awareness, Joy, bit like yourself. And I doubt you'd be so understanding if you never got any sleep, like OP.