Noisy toddler next door

[Sukie272]

I live in a small flat and my next-door neighbours have a toddler who is about 2. This child seems to stay up all night as well as most of the day- he screams, cries, yells, bangs toys on the walls and runs around their flat constantly, until around 3am.
The walls are very thin, so he wakes me up repeatedly. After 6 months of being woken 4-5 times a night (the sound of him running on hardwood floors sounds like someone is hamnering nails into the floor) I complained to landlord. He agreed this level of noise at night is unacceptable and spoke to the family. For a few weeks the noise calmed down and they seemed to make an effort to keep him away from the partition wall at night, but now the noise is unbearable again.
I've tried politely talking to the parents (who are Eastern European and don't speak much English), I've also put leaflets under their door about SureStart and other sources of help. At times I bang on the wall in desperation. I just want some peace and quiet!
Is it normal for a 2-year-old to cry for several hours every day, and to run around screaming for hours at a time, several times a night? I'm worried he may be being abused/neglected... should I contact Social Services? The parents rarely take him out of the flat, so maybe he is just bored?
I'm in first trimester of pregnancy and currently off work sick, so I can't escape the noise even in the daytime. I feel so angry that these people let their child cause such a disturbance! Earplugs make little difference, and I can hear him in every room in my flat, even though my bedroom is not next to the partition wall.
What can I do about this? Does anyone have a similar experience?

It sounds like the toddler has SN tbh. If he was being abused or neglected you would hear them shouting at him etc and sadly he would probably be too scared to cry or run around. Neglected and abused children are often very quiet and neglected babies often don't cry at all because they learn that there is no point.

It's not HMO though, it's a family Zsazsa.
Totally understand hardwoods are awful in flats (and can be very noisy) but I would not pay for it to be carpeted throughout when you can have someone not as noisy, therefore it's a tenant issue re the noise.

Suki, re the running around thing at night, if you are totally and utterly exhausted from a child ruling the roost all day/evening, you sometimes just give up. Without pinning them down, or locking them in a room, there is no reasoning sometimes with a 2 year old!

I don't think it's about having the discipline or experience for a sleep routine

I used to be a nanny specialising in children with behavioural problems. If I do say so myself, I was pretty Damn good at my job. Yet my child WILL NOT sleep through the night. Some nights he will scream, others he will just wake and need resettling. He is 2 for gawds sake, that's not unusual!

I def think moving is your best - I hope you have understanding new neighbours as I suspect your in for a shock when your baby is born!

Suki you may want to read this

I can see both sides here tbh. My neighbour and her kids are really noisy at times and it drives me nuts. But then, I'm due to give birth in May, so I know they'll hear everything from us once baby is here.

If you are genuinely concerned that there is a child protection issue, I'd ring the NSPCC before you call Social Services. You can explain everything to them, they're the experts, and they can make the decision as to whether to file a report.

(I speak from experience btw - I did this with aforementioned neighbours when the mum was screaming and swearing abuse at the kids every morning. NSPCC agreed that a report should be made and it's calmed down a lot since. They're still noisy, and there's still shouting, but it's more like normal family noise now IYSWIM.)

I do have sympathy for the parents and realise it must be very tough for them. They are a young couple (early 20s) who share the flat with his parents (mid-40s). The older couple don't speak any English (they just say 'no English' when I tried to talk to them), but the young couple speak a bit.
RidingtheStorm, it's a good idea to befriend the mum, I've tried in past but she doesn't respond in a friendly way. I tried to chat to her a few times in the corridor (before I'd ever complained about noise). The first time I met her I thought the child was female (he was dressed all in pink) so I said 'what a beautiful little girl'... the mum looked annoyed and snapped 'he is a boy' and turned away. Oops!

I can understand how the SureStart leaflets might have come across the wrong way, but my intention was to provide a source of help not to offend the parents. SureStart is a lifeline for many families (free nursery places, social groups for mums, professional help and advice for all sorts of problems). Unfortunately not everyone is aware of the services available or how to access them.

I think, unfortunately, it may sound like they are not doing anything but they may well be chasing them round, trying to get them into bed, or doing the sleep training which we were advised to do by our Health visitor which involved a baby gate and a lot of crying at 3am !! It might sound like they're not doing anything but they might well be at the end of their tether.

In reality there really isn't much you can do with a toddler that gets up in the night. Both mine went through this and I'm sure the neighbours have heard it all.

You will be in this situation too so try not to get too cross, but look into moving, the noise levels sound awful. Unfortunately the only answer is to move.

I don't agree there is nothing they can do. He could have a safety gate to prevent running around. He should be going to activities of some kind during the day or he will be unruly and under stimulated. Having a toddler does not give you carte blanch to inflict misery on others. I say that as the mother of a toddler!! I would never let him run around in the night or stay in with him shouting all day.

OK, tbf it does sound nightmarish. I'd give a local HV a call. Tbh I never used them and don't rate them much but SS might be a step too far, if you don't hear the child being abused.

His poor parents must be exhausted

I feel for my neighbours, 6mo ds is teething and has screamed non stop for about 40mins tonight, and if tonight is anything like last night, this will be repeated every 2hours till about 6am. babies and toddlers are noisy, you can't expect them to cage him up or restrain him at night, so your just going to have to try and find a way to ignore it.

top tip MOD ear plugs for use with heavy artillery weapons are fucking amazing!!

However, parents CAN prevent toddlers running on hardwood floors at night, and can also stop them hitting partition walls. They can also move toddler to a room further away from the partition wall when they are crying or screaming or shouting for long periods at night

good luck with your baby when it reaches toddler age OP.

I have wondered if he has special needs or an autistic spectrum disorder.
Or perhaps the parents are just inexperienced, or don't see the need for discipline or a sleep-routine?
I have also wondered whether keeping him active at night is a deliberate choice if they prefer to stay up late themselves

lots of wondering and assuming. Have you tried talking to them? About this? About anything? Do you know anything about them? Other than that they are forrin? Maybe you could strike up conversation with them, check out what's going on, find out what kind of people they are, before presuming they are battering their children.

And, remember, your own decisions about how you raise your child may impact on their lives, they might not like how you parent in the future either, and they will hear you. And they will judge you too.

Sukie signs of abuse include things like a child who is quiet, a child who is unkempt, a child who is never taken out of the house. Obvious things are bruises, dirt....

My children are loud. We live in a 2nd floor flat and the neighbour has complained but we were told that the noises of children playing or crying are allowed...they're normal noises. We don't let out children jump or throw balls but they DO scream at one another from time to time daily.

AmantesSuntAmentes and meglet, LOL there are plenty of options that do not involve your suggestions of straight-jackets, duct-tape or a parent on gaurd-duty...
How about the simple act of fixing a stair-gate across bedroom door to keep toddler in one room (preferably not the room next to partition wall) or using a play-pen or a cot/bed with sides? It would be also be common sense to move the cot/playpen out of reach of the partition wall so toddler can't bang toys against it.

It's very interesting to read different perspectives and hear everyone's thoughts. One thing that stands out is that this toddler behaviour seems far more normal and commonplace than I realised.

However, I still think people in apartment buildings have a duty to try to reduce noise at night.
Letting a toddler run wild every night might be easier, but if he's repeatedly waking neighbours and affecting their quality of life, it becomes disrespectful and selfish not to try and minimise noise.
While I understand you can't stop crying, I don't think there is any excuse for repeated running and wall-banging at night.

If you tried to stop DD 21m from
running about (even at 2am) the whole of the greater manchester region would know about it for hours. I choose the path of least resistance as it means she will stop sooner than if I force it.

The leaflets were a mistake I think OP. If you were my neighbour and posted them you'd have made my PND and guilt about the situation even worse.

From your posts it appears that you have massive lack of awareness of being a parent with a challenging toddler, I pray it doesn't bite you right in the arse on those judgey pants.

X post - OP you are going to have a shock if you think you can put unwieldy toddler who's screaming / crying and wanting to run about in a cot and it'll stop it.....

Ye gods.

If you think a 2yr-old will be contained in a cot, you're in for a heck of a shock in a couple of years time.

As you have been so keen to let us know, in virtually every post on this thread, the family next door is Eastern European....to add to your frankly risible list of assumptions about your neighbours, it might also be worth pointing out to you that many countries, children have no set bedtimes. The country I live in is one example. Kids just run round till they drop and parents think we Brits are cold and uncaring about our children because we pack them off to bed.
As others have said, I look forward to hearing how things go for you in, say, 2 yrs time.

My toddler could give Mr Bolt a run for his money. I honestly would need a gate on every doorway. Also when I tried to trick her with sweet corn instead of blueberries (I know) she screamed like I was sticking pins in her.

Also my HV told us to let her CIO . We didn't use that method but ndn may be battling it out.

I most certainly didn't suggest a straight jacket . I did say its not the done thing.

How about the simple act of fixing a stair-gate across bedroom door to keep toddler in one room (preferably not the room next to partition wall) or using a play-pen or a cot/bed with sides?

Incredibly simple, yes. Then look forward to the day you experience your own child screaming the house down, once you've restrained them.

You could, of course, then release them, in attempt to quieten them for the neighbours - but then they'll be belting around at all hours (and disturbing the neighbours anyway).

It would be also be common sense to move the cot/playpen out of reach of the partition wall so toddler can't bang toys against it.

Until said child escapes cot/playpen and bangs on the wall anyway. Which most children can manage by a year old, BTW.

You have all of these everyday conundrums to look forward, op. I would suggest that you shouldn't move, because if your child is noisy, you will not have to fear upsetting the neighbours (they will understand, after all!) or receiving a visit from SS over normal baby/ toddler behaviour

amant great post.

Mrs.Cs, I agree with you absolutely.

PavlovtheCat, I understand your point about getting to know the neighbours and gathering more information, but I have already tried this without success. The parents speak very limited English- I have had a few awkward half-understood conversations with them but I do not feel it is appropriate to ask if their child has autism or what their discipline at home is like. These are sensitive subjects even if they understood what I am asking.

I think a major part of the problem is their toddler seems to be kept indoors almost all the time. There are many parks, playgrounds and indoor soft-play-centres within walking distance of the flats. Maybe I should put some of these leaflets in their letterbox, or do you think they might interpret that wrongly?

Op is getting a lot of stick here. I think there's a responsibility to neighbours when you're attached on anyway. For instance St the weekend, we take our toddler downstairs so as to not disturb our ndn rest. I would also resettle from any night waking with them in mind.

My toddler has a stair gate across his bedroom door to stop him destroying the whole house at 3 am too.

Maybe I should put some of these leaflets in their letterbox, or do you think they might interpret that wrongly?

No. I think you should live and let live. Stop obsessing about your poor neighbours and their parenting and instead, learn a little about the realities of child rearing for yourself. It really does sound like you could do with the education.