"Too posh to push" ?

[jasper]

I know this is a clumsy phrase but at least we all know what it means.
Does anyone actually know of a woman ( themselves even) for whom this is/was the case?

I think all this 'too posh to push' stuff is just another way of having a go at women in general (and sadly lots of women are the most guilty! - not referring to mumsnet, more columnists in papers who love slagging off women much more than they do men). I do think it's a shame when people can't respect other's choices, particularly when they harm nobody.

As I posted on another conversation, I had a planned c-section due to placenta praevia - so it saved my life and my son's. But apart from that, I thought it was a great way to give birth. He was a big baby but I didn't have a moment's pain. I went in to the theatre which didn't look like one, was a bit nervous but not afraid, the epidural took beautifully and I felt absolutely nothing - not even a rummage (!) which I think is due to mine being planned and not an emergency. It was very calm and yet very emotional, my husband was right with me and we were both crying - my son was beautiful, noisy and had no problems whatsoever, despite being three weeks early (and nearly 9lbs - another reason for the c-section, methinks). My consultant was able to deliver him onto my tummy and I was able to hold him and feed him rightaway. I was up the next day and out of pain in three days. I was totally fine and back to normal in two weeks - yes, driving and lifting and everything. I don't know what all this is about scars on stomachs - I don't know anyone whose stomach is a couple of inches above their fanny! My scar is right in my pubic hair, and frankly, so few people see down there I never give it a thought. I think so many problems connected with c-sections are due to their being emergencies after horrible labours and many interventions. The research that showed that planned c-sections were much safer than vaginal deliveries for breech babies showed no bad effects on mothers - even the researchers were surprised. I lost quite a lot of blood in mine, but that was due to the placenta, not the op and I'd have lost a hell of a lot more with a 'normal' delivery. In fact, I may well have bled to death... So I'm very much in favour of c-sections and would almost certainly have one if there is a next time for me. I hate pain - like any normal person and don't fancy hours of horrible labour followed by an emergency c-section.

Oh, and I think the stuff about cost to the NHS is wrong too - the NHS could save loads of money by not treating hang gliders who fly into cliffs, or replacing the livers of alcoholics or treating lung cancer in smokers. I happen to think it SHOULD do all of these, and I bet they cost a lot more than elective c-sections.

Also, most people who have a vaginal delivery seem to have tears and stitches - yet nobody goes on about scars and stitches and infections when discussing these births - only c-sections. I wonder why? I'd rather have a controlled cut than a nasty great tear in the most sensitive bit of my anatomy..

Wells, I am glad you enjoyed your C/S which in your case was essential for placenta praevia. It is perhaps worth noting that repeat C/S carry with them increased risks. When the decision of weighing up benefits and risks makes a C/S the correct choice is one thing. When women have unnecessary surgey that is another. As a midwife I have seen women request C/S following traumatic first delivery assuming it is routine and risk free. Unfortunately the resultant C/S has been more traumatic than expected and a decision regretted. First labours can often be a harder experience than expected but often the second experience is much better. I myself had wonderful labours and thoroughly enjoyed the experience. Unfortunately nature is not kind to everyone.
I must admit I do get annoyed when I see 'routine Caesarean' written about. Major abdominal surgery is never routine. The Caesarean is a wonderful mode of delivery when needed due to whatever complication for mother or baby.

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I too saw the too posh to push bit in Richard & Judy. I know for alot of women there is no choice, medical problems arising in pregnancy or during delivery make a C/S necessary and for these women it is wonderful that this is now a relative safe procedure and saves many lives. However I cannot understand a woman who just fancies one! One of my friends recently had her second C/S due to medical reasons (she was all ready to try VBAC when her baby decided to turn breech and they wouldn't allow her) she had a bad experience this time round, getting an infection in the wound, the midwife couldn't remove the stitches as they had gone down into the wound etc and she just felt it was a battle to do everyday things for quite a few weeks. However myself in my first labour (fairly normal labour) ended up cut to pieces down below (couldn't push DS out, he went into distress, cut and grab sort of situation) in my mind a cut down there would be awful but having spoken to various friends who have had C/S it really is preferable. After a couple of days you barely notice it and it doesn't interfere with your ability to look after your baby. I would imagine it is still possible to get an infection on a wound down there but think the chances of this are lessened. I know for alot of women it is not a case of having any choice and a C/S is necessary but if anyone thinks major abdominal surgery is preferable to having an episiotomy I would have to disagree, it is not such a big deal and you may not even need one!

Hmm...I suppose I am a woman 'who just fancies one' for next time after my good experience last time. In fact, I cannot imagine anyone wanting a natural labour (sorry!). It sounds vile to me - all that agony for hours and hours - like something out of a nightmare. All the people I know who had C/s have been absolutely fine - rather better, in fact, than friends who had 'natural' labours. I personally don't know anyone who got an infection or had a long or painful recovery, but I am seeing a friend for lunch who had a vaginal delivery and couldn't sit down six weeks later after being torn to ribbons and several weeks later has patches of numbness which she finds very disconcerting to say the least. It made me go cold just thinking about it. Each to their own. And as I say, emergency c/s have much higher risks (including the use of general anaesthetic) than planned ones, which use an epidural - just the same one as most women use when in labour! Also, my c-s in no way interfered with my ability to look after my baby. I'm not that crazy about this use of the word natural either. Aids, the Plague and arthritis are natural! It doesn't always mean better, as all the women in the third world who die in childbirth or suffer a lifetime of incontinence due to being horribly torn proves. Obviously if you have a lovely time in labour (which I honestly cannot imagine being possible!) then that's fantastic, but I hate all the criticism of c-s. The National Childbirth Trust is one of the worst offenders. On its website there's something about how after a c-s you 'may feel less of a woman or a mother,' which made my blood boil. How dare they?!! Nobody expects anyone to have 'natural dentistry' or 'natural operations' so why all this pressure to have a natural (esp 'drug-free' labour) I think it's mad to actively want to experience pain.
Oh and c-s are huge lifesavers for breech babies, so your friend definitely made the right choice.

I have to say that I (Luckily) had a very good labour, bloody painful, but very quick. I had no stitches, a very small tear which healed in a couple of days ( they said if you tear naturally it heals quicker and it certainly did) and I actually really loved my birth experience. I felt so proud of myself (rightly or wrongly) for delivering her. I was in absolute agony because I went from 2cm to 8 in an hour with no pain relief and then there wasn't time for any other than gas and air(not being a martyr) and I must say it was a wonderful experience and it is something I am quite looking forward to next time around.

I have friends who have had both. The ones that had C/S a couple did have infections and found the not being able to drive etc for 6 weeks very limiting. In fact, one of them was very happy with the C/S and one felt she had been cheated.

I actually think that C/S should only be done when medically necessary because it is still a major operation and I don't think they should be taken lightly.

But everyone's take on pain is different. I'm a complete wimp but was petrified of needing an epidural, let alone a C/S. I couldn't have coped with drips, catheters, stitches being removed etc..I refused induction for several weeks as I was worried about the increased chance of a C/S and the contractions being so strong that I'd want an epidural. I had an episiotomy which wasn't fun but wasn't traumatic, as baby was face-up. I went home after 6 hours and had no problems.

Contrast this to a friend who had a planned C/S who ended up in hospital for 2 weeks, had blood transfusions, scar infected etc..Not a nice start to life with your baby. Although I agree everyone has a right to as much pain relief they need, we can't pretend that C/S are easy, or necessarily straightforward. I'm also surprised by the number of doctors I know who intend to have C/S because "labour looks so messy".
(Oh, and having bottle fed all my 3 from birth I'm no fan of the NCT's rather single-minded approach to this motherhood thing)

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I agree everyone's pain tolerance is different and I was completely openminded and all up for an epidural but simply didn't have time.

My concern is that it is still considered quite a major op and it is taken too lightly sometimes. But it is still everyone's choice and should be. I know if I had a 3 day labour and then ended up with a C/S after all or had complications I would opt for one next time straight away.

Basically I think birth choices should be based on the least risk to mother and child and that's is how it should be decided.

Bloss, it was unfortunate that it didn't work out and I admit I was very lucky so probably am a bit biased but I do whole heartedly agree with you when you say millions of women have done it. God, they'be been doing it for centuries !

Before anyone jumps in and says that people used to die before in childbirth I know all this and also, I guess another argument is that they now have treatments for cancer which they didn't have before, medicine has progressed etc. However, these are progressive 'treatments' and I don't think a C/S is a 'treatment' if it is elective.

I really get a bit fed up with people slagging off NCT. If you care to look into their statements you will find it is all research backed information and not just their opinion.

If they say that you 'may feel less of a woman or a mother,' after a CS, then that is because they have looked at the research and discovered that that is indeed how many women feel. In fact, NCT condemns the use of the phrase 'Too Posh to Push', which was dreamt up by a newspaper. And as for the breast/formula issue, nowhere does NCT say you must breast feed. Instead, they offer parents information about the pros and cons and the support to make the right choice for them, information that is jolly difficult to get from any other source, that I'm aware of.

And if anyone doubts my words, perhaps they should obtain from NCT copies of their Birth Policy and Baby Feeding Policy, where it is all down in black and white.

Rant over.

Well said SueDonim - I found the NCT very useful

Well, I am kinda 50/50 on this issue because although I don't have complete Placenta Previa, my Placenta is 3/4 over my cervix. My consultant has given me the option for a C Section or I can try to complete the first stage of labour NATURALLY to see how it affects dilation, and if I start to bleed go down to theatre. He has informed me that the minute I go into labour, I will be required to go straight into hospital and be monitored from the very beginning, which is very restrictive. He has written in my notes NOT WHETHER TO ALLOW TRIAL LABOUR. I am 37 weeks pregnant now and I see my consultant on Monday, so I have this weekend to make the decision whether or not to have an elective C section, because, lets face it, the stress of having to have an Emergancy C section is terrifying, but some of the stories I have read on here in regards to elective C sections have also frightened me. I don't know what to do, and am now scared of both.

I agree women shoud have choice but that choice should be an INFORMED one - that is the difference. A caesarean is not a simple option.
Informed does not mean that because one personal experience was good or bad, that is the basis the decision should be made. That is similar to someone saying the evidence regarding the vast increased cancer risk through smoking cigarettes is not valid because they have smoked for 50 years and are 'fit as a fiddle'. That is purely due to good luck and nothing else.

Bloss - you have experienced labour twice and required a C/S. There is absolutely no argument that next time round you should have a planned C/S as it is the safest option.

Wells - you do not seem to have a balanced well informed view of normal labour - in that case you should probably have an elective C/S next time because you have no confidence in your ability to have an enjoyable birth experience.

I definately believe that some women opting for elective C/S do not do so armed with all the facts.

Kicsr - have just seen your posting. This is not an uncommon occurrence. Your consultant is optimistic that you may have an uncomplicated labour because your placenta is not covering the os (opening of the cervix).
When you do labour it may be a good idea to have an epidural incase you do come across any difficuly that requires a C/S. Having movement restricted can make labour more painful ( not always) but in your case monitoring would be required.
Discuss your fears fully with your midwife or your consultant so that you know exactly what is happening and why.
You may well sail through labour without any difficulty at all. If you encounter any bleeding problems you may need a C/S which will be the safest option for you under those circumstances.

Kicsr, I really do feel for you and sorry if all our stories are frightening you. It's a difficutl decision. How strongly do you feel about attempting labour. I would probably go for the elective. Did the consultant say what the probability of having to have a c/s was ?

Thanks Mears and Tillysmummy, both Natural birth and an Elective C- Section now frighten me, as I can't have the Natural birth I wanted, (staying at home for as long as possible with partner, being pampered, little or no pain relief etc etc)as I have to be constantly monitored and not everyone has had a positive C Section!! I am moving house next Friday, so I have so many things to contend with at the moment. Arrhhhhh! Next time, if Men can give birth, then its Daniels turn, either that or we get a puppy!

Kicsr, I am sure it will all be fine - you can make the experience positive. If you are positive yourself I am sure it will all be fine. After all the most important thing is a healthy little bundle after all isn't it ? Good luck with the house move and everything ! xx Next time definitely make husband do it !!

I agree with Mears about Wells attitude! I do think everyone has the right to give birth as they see fit, and after all, its just birth, its not motherhood (the really important bit). But it does seem to me that Wells has some slightly skewed ideas about birth (not being able to even imagine why anyone would want a natural birth for example)...but we aren't going to change her mind I know!

Batters

Thanks for your response.

I am not sure if I want to try the first stage of labour, constantly monitored, restricted, (hardly the way I planned, I thought I'd be at home at this stage), only to start bleeding and have to go down for emergancy C Section. Is it worth going thru the pain, and then the panic of going down to theatre. Is it worth waiting to see if the baby is going to get distressed? Isn't it better to choose a C section from the very beginning, so I won't be worried about things going wrong. This is my first baby, and its 2002, why does the whole experience of childbirth still continue to be traumatic?
I can't help thinking that Midwifes and Consultants who seem slightly anti C section have this bee in their bonnets that they suffered the pain of childbirth so should everyone else......and as for the arguement that C- Sections cost the NHS more, so what, we all pay our taxes and NI so we should have the choice as we should be entitled to give birth as we want.
Yes C section is a major adomonal operation, but its our bodies and we should be free to make that decision.

As for the decision I am going to make FOR MEDICAL REASONS, (I am certainly NOT TOO POSH!), I haven't got a clue and have until Monday to decide.

kicsr - it seems pretty clear to me that you instinctively feel that a c-section would be better. I think you should go with your gut reaction and have a planned section, otherwise you will be too worried about things going wrong to enjoy your labour anyway.

Good luck with whatever you decide. x

Mears, can I ask you something (and Leese too if you are around?) Or anyone else who might know about this?
I had an elective for persistent transverse lie three years ago and the aftermath went badly wrong for me - ruptured wound requiring emergency surgery just as I was about to be discharged.
I am currently undergoing investigations for secondary infertility and so far all the non-invasive tests have shown that all should be well. So I guess the next stage is to talk to the consultant about a lap and dye.
What I find so scary about all the publicity over the risks of c-sections is the repeated suggestion that your fertility afterwards can be affected. Do surgeons doing electives routinely mangle fallopian tubes? If I was crammed with antibiotics in hospital at the time could I still have permanent damage from some kind of infection?
Kicsr, I was unlucky - I hope the above has not spooked you. I know several other people who had electives or emergency c-sections and had uneventful recoveries. I am sure everything will be fine, whatever form of birth you choose.