"Too posh to push" ?

[jasper]

I know this is a clumsy phrase but at least we all know what it means.
Does anyone actually know of a woman ( themselves even) for whom this is/was the case?

[flashingnose]

pmsl - get back to here

[anteater]

Sorry, thought this was a thread about lawnmowers..

[JoCrow]

Just going back to the original post, do we really know what TPTP means, does anyone know who first used the slogan?

[Tamz77]

I've read quite a bit of the book by Laura Kaplan Shanley and thought it was amazing. Scary, but also fascinating and she really impressed me. She's very honest about her experiences, eg she had one of her children removed from her care for a while by social services, also one of her babies died soon after birth. Also I don't think it's a 'typical' experience that a woman can give birth on her own at home, leave the placenta in a bathtub and head off for a walk immediately afterwards with the new baby. But don't you all think it's amazing that there are women out there who can do it? I doubt that any of them can be considered 'recklessly stupid'; they do after all have nine months to plan and prepare for the event, do their research and weigh up the risks. And they are all women who revel in birth and motherhood, while all their babies are very much wanted: do you seriously think that they are wantonly putting their unborn children at risk? Also you have to bear in mind that most are American moms and the medical care of expectant/birthing mothers over there is in many ways much worse than over here (read 'Misconceptions' by Naomi Wolf), especially for those who have opted out of society.

This is not a route that I would choose for myself, but I do tend to think, "good for them". They are rarely completely alone (dps/dhs are present in case of emergency) and I doubt that if they had any kind of major problems during pregnancy, they wouldn't reassess their plans. To be honest the prospect of a hospital birth fills me with fear: the rate of sections (apparently approaching 1 in 4), episiotomy, infection, drugs etc, and if I was confident enough about birth, had experienced it before, and if my pregnancy had progressed normally, I can honestly see the appeal of doing it on my own - why, after all, do we expect birth to be such a massive physical and mental trauma?

When my gran had her second child (my father), she went into labour on the Thursday, and he wasn't born until the following Tuesday. This was the 1940s and it was unusual to have hospital deliveries. If her experience happened today, intervention would be almost guaranteed. She had a midwife with her for most of her labour, who slept in the same bed, and massaged her back so much that a hole was rubbed in my gran's nightie. Towards the end a doctor was called to attend; he tied a towel onto the end of the bed and told my gran to pull on it as she delivered. And so it was: a good 5 day labour, no pain relief, no intervention, minimal medical supervision. Perhaps if women were offered this happy medium of birth - ie relaxed and empowered in familiar surroundings with the bare minimum of outside interference, certainly no dissociated 'experts' around advising or even pushing pethidine, epidural, sections, forceps, episiotomy etc - then perhaps fewer women would be pushed towards the other extreme of unassisted childbirth.

[Lindy]

Just had a look at the site - yikes!! Each to their own of course but those sort of situations would be my worse nightmare.

[hmb]

I am sure that I would be a better person if I could try to understand why these women want to give birth alone, but I am sorry , I think they are bonkers! I read the footling breech, as I had my second section for this reason. She was damn lucky that they didn't both die. But I guess everthing was going to be ok because she and her partner said 'belief statments' that everything would be OK.......and as for sex during labout....whaaaat??????? If Dh had sugested that I think I would have pushed him off the nearest cliff!

[SoupDragon]

I couldn't get over the 'standing over a baby bath, catching the baby herself' bit! Eeek!

[Tissy]

Jasper, that site is scary, isn't it?

I was particularly horrified at the story of "the boy with a broken heart". The woman went into labour at 35 weeks,didn't call for help, delivered a baby who died a few hours later, and ONLY THEN called the paramedics, who, surprise, surprise were unable to help! I don't think it matters that the coroner said the baby would have died even if they had been in hospital- that might not have been the case.

I hope this madwoman has not managed to persuade other pregnant women to follow her irresponsible lead.

[bundle]

thank god for the voice of reason in Mears.

[mears]

Sorry - I can't agree that unassisted births are a good thing. I have come across women who have delivered unexpectedly at home and have been brought in having haemorrhaged badly due to vaginal tears or the placenta not delivering. Now, fair enough it may be that these women are terrified as they have not planned it, therefore there have been complications. It is breaking the law to knowingly have an unassisted birth, so I am sure women just have to lie and say they delivered quicker than expected.
However, I can understand why women would want unassisted birth. Hospital births can be plagued with interventions. It is up to midwives to stop trying to control labour, but assist mothers in their choices for labour. Even if that means sitting in the corner with your mouth shut most of the time

[Chinchilla]

When I said 'unassisted', I meant no drugs BTW, not no-one else around!

[jasper]

Aloha I found this site a while back. I am horrified at the idea but each to their own.

unassisted birth

[pupuce]

Aloha - one more thing... you need to understand (better) why people would do this... before you judge them.

[pupuce]

DH would be looking after my other 2 in the same house as I'd be in... Women who have unassisted births (in the UK) usually have their partner very near by... and sometimes in the room but they have no medical support.

Aloha- with all due respect...I respect your strong views about caesarean... please respect mine... I would not put my baby's life into jeopardy... I do not wish to argue this with you as I also feel a caesarean is NOT necessarily safe... but l'll drop this thread.

[aloha]

I mean, what the hell would you do if things went wrong - as they do? I think there is a huge difference between being brave and totally reckless.

[aloha]

I think we have to remember that there you never give birth alone - there are two people there, one of them a baby with no say. I have to say, I am genuinely shocked that someone would risk their child's life by giving birth completely alone. I have never even heard of such a thing! I can't believe that people can get so upset (rightly) by someone popping out and leaving older children alone for a couple of hours or by letting them ride in a car without a seatbelt, but would think this was OK. Surely this is really a child safety issue? I am thinking of all the people on this very site who have spoken of the dangers their children were in at the time of their birth as well as themselves. For example, SofiaAmes had a VBAC, but bled afterwards and might have died at home (IIRC), let alone if she was on her own completely. Then what would have happened to her baby! I would definitely have died under those circumstances (even if I had had a child before). I'm sorry but on a pure child safety issue this sounds totally irresponsible to me, and a world away from any issue related to cs or homebirth. I think you have a right to risk your own life, but who would willingly risk their baby's life?

[Chinchilla]

I was adamant before the birth of ds that I only wanted a TENS, and Gas/air. I am allergic to Pethedine, and was totally against Epidurals (injection in spine...bleugh), and CS's (scary and I wanted a 'natural' birth as much as possible). However, due to stress on ds, and his op position, and various other problems too many to mention, I had to have EVERYTHING except a CS. I was nearly given that too. In the end, I had a lovely birth because I was not in any pain, and I was oblivious to the dangers that ds was in, because dh did not mention the blips on the monitor. He spent about 14 hours of the 24 hour labour in a panic but trying to hide it from me.

Looking back, I realise how naive I was. I would have been proud to have been able to give birth without assistance. I don't know why, but I would, so I can see where Forest was coming from. I gave in to the Epidural, as it was practically forced on me, but I cried, and felt like I had failed. However, once given, it was fantastic, and I did not look back. I would ask for an epidural again without a second thought. However, I would not ask for a CS unless absolutely necessary. If I have to have one, I hope that I don't have to be knocked out, because I know how bad I feel after anaesthesia, and I did enjoy having ds with me as soon as the Apgar tests had been done.

I have no views as to whether CS is 'good' or 'bad'. I think that it is something that should not be discounted, as the safety of the child and mother are paramount. I have no doubts that I would have died 100 years ago, without all the technology we have now, and am thankful for it.

[forest]

Ok - I am posting again. I do think it is incredibly brave thing to do to have a baby by yourself whether it is a good thing to do - well I think that is up to the individual that is having a baby. I personally wouldn't want to give birth without a midwife and dh. I needed the reassurance that if anything went wrong there was someone there to help me. However, I do admire women that give birth that way and from what I have read it made a huge impact on their feelings about giving birth and, yes, they came across as being very superior about it but I don't see anything wrong with that. I was glad I had drugs and was in hospital. Therefore, they could be as superior as they wanted towards me it wouldn't take away from the immense joy I felt at seeing my baby. Nor would it take away from the experience I had.
And from what I have read women that choose to give birth unassisted are doing so intentionally and have done alot of reading, spoken to other people and have usually given birth before so know what to expect. It isn't a case of oops I forgot to go to hospital or contact the midwife. What did your friends think about their unassisted births Pupuce?
And I am glad there are others that felt proud of their bodies for pushing a baby out.
And at the end of the day, Aloha, you have a healthy ds that you adore and I have a healthy dd that I adore and that to me is really more important than how they popped into the world

[Tissy]

but pupuce, you have the training/ experience to know if something wasn't right. And what about dh/ dp does he deserve to be excluded?

[pupuce]

Well call me bonkers Aloha... I'd do it if I went for number 3.
I know 3 people who have done it!

[aloha]

Forest, you said, or at least I understood you to say, that it was a good/brave thing to do to give birth with nobody else present. You don't mean that do you? That would be bonkers. Suppose you started to bleed? The baby couldn't emerge etc etc/

[jasper]

What's wrong with feeling proud of pushing your baby out? I felt incredibly proud , AND lucky that things had not gone wrong in any way.

Just because you feel proud of giving birth whatever way you did does not mean you look down on anyone who had a different experience, either by choice or through circumstance.

[berries]

Forest (slowly peeks head above wall), just wanted to say that I think I know where you are coming from. I still remember very clearly that final 'push' where beloved dds came out, the first after 13 hrs & 4 hrs pushing. Yes, it was an effort, and, like anything (even an extra tough session at the gym) I did feel proud of myself and proud of my body for going through that & producing such an amazing baby (both my babies are absolutely amazing ) This doesnt mean to say there is anything wrong with a cs, and if anyone had said at any stage that either dd was in distress I would probably have run to theatre myself, but for me, I'm glad I didn't have to.
BTW dd2 was born with no assistance or drugs (very nearly no hospital either - just managed to get there) but I don;t think that was down to confidence, just luck - & good 'child bearing' hips as mw called it!

[willow2]

By the way, I was just genuinely interested in how many of us had managed a completely natural birth - i wasn't having a pop!

[tigermoth]

agree with others here who say every woman should choose and then be supported. This occurred to me as I skimmed through the postings:

Women who fall pregnant accidently and then ask for an abortion on the grounds a pregnancy causing extreme mental suffering are not roundly condemned by all and sundry for their choice. To my way of thinking, those women who want babies, but cannot mentally face the idea of labour should not be roundly condemned by society either.