"Too posh to push" ?

[jasper]

I know this is a clumsy phrase but at least we all know what it means.
Does anyone actually know of a woman ( themselves even) for whom this is/was the case?

[Wells1]

Leese, had you read my post you could see I was referring to a specific midwife who had the cheek to publicly berate a named woman for having a c-s without knowing anything at all about that case - and being totally and utterly wrong. I think there can be no more shamefully unprofessional behaviour than that - and, yes, I think doing this sort of thing is woman-hating - why do women feel the need to constantly attack women who choose c-s in such personal ways? And again, why do women feel disappointed by having c-s and a healthy baby? Where do these notions of 'success' and 'failure' come from? They must come from somewhere and I do think the NCT plays a big part in it. Nobody feels a failure for having pain relief for an operation yet women are constantly made to feel bad for the way they give birth. NOBODY ever has a go at women who have natural birth with no drugs - sheesh, Kate Winslet and Emma Thompson were practically canonised, yet it's always open season on Posh etc - yet is there any evidence that Winslet is a better, more loving mother than Posh? I think not. As for 'torn to ribbons' maybe you should have a chat with my friend who had the most appalling time and ended up with endless stitches and is still in pain months on. She described the pain of labour as 'like the baby cutting its way out of me with knives'. Or the friend whose baby died, not because of mismanaged care, but because her baby just could not cope with the trauma of a normal birth (I don't want to be more specific in case anyone recognises the case).
While I waited for my c-s in the labour ward I could hear the most appalling screaming all around me (and, no, I'm not exaggerating)... I remember being so glad it wasn't going to be me. And if that makes me somehow deficient, then I must be, eh? And yes, I do think it is extremely strange to deliberately inflict pain on yourself when it could be avoided (I think much the same about crossing the artic with huskies & sleds!). My husband was present for the birth of his first child by vaginal birth and for my c-s. I asked him how they compared, and he said there was no comparison, the suffering in birth is so much greater and he was glad he hadn't had to watch me go through it. Maybe he is also really ill-informed/has an underlying problem/has missed out/is aggressive or any of the other insulting things that I am, according to some of you. But, I forgot, I must be wrong and a bad person, because I had a section and actually enjoyed it and would opt for it again. I am particularly disturbed by midwife who would like take this option away from all women. So much for helping women to have an enjoyable birth experience! Anyway, I don't even agree with the major surgery stuff - it sounds so scary. I had a local anaesthetic, it was over in ten minutes and I was totally fine in a couple of days. I probably had fewer stitches than my poor friend. It's hard to admit to having a c-s these days - even celebrities feel bullied into making up reasons - and having seen the reaction on this board I can see why.

[Wells1]

Tiktok

why is OK for someone to write 'can't imagine why anyone would choose a c-s" but not to write the opposing view? 'Hideously damaged' actually referred to a case in this week's papers of a child who suffered catastrophic birth injuries due to the lack of a c-s.
Look at Lindy's post. She feels bad about her decision and I think that the anti-cs brigade has to be careful because those views do undermine women. I don't think birth sounds pleasant at all - but I would gladly die for my baby. I feel as if some people think these two views are totally incompatible. In all the discussions about celebrities I feel it is as if natural labour = good mother, c-s = bad mother. You try being on the end of that day after day and see how aggressive you feel.

[SueDonim]

Wells, your experiences of labour are all second hand and not necessarily the whole picture. What you saw and heard in hospital might not compare with the subject's view of the situation. Generally women don't launch into full blown labour and endless agonies. It builds up gradually and your body adapts to it. And I certainly screamed and yelled in labour - not because it was 'vile' but because I enjoyed making a fuss!! Although I had a traumatic first delivery, (which nowadays would certainly end in a CS, and I would have been happy with that) I could hardly describe myself as suffering in my other three labours. In fact, one of them was virtually pain-free, rather, a feeling or sensation. A miscarriage I had gave me more pain, I think.

Comparing labour with other operations is a specious argument. An appendectomy, for instance, is performed because something has gone wrong with the appendix. But, in general terms, nothing is wrong with a woman's body when she labours; it's just doing its job - a bit like having a pee or poo.

As for NCT playing such a big part in all this - if your assertion was correct NCT would be jumping up and down with joy at the thought of being so influential.

In many ways, we are fortunate to have the luxury of debating this issue. In the area of the world I'm moving to, 400 women a week die in childbirth, due to the lack of basic care that we take for granted. Now that's suffering.

[Wells1]

In many ways I agree it is a luxury to debate this issue. But in my opinion the debate arises because so many people want to take choice of a c-s away from women. Nobody who chooses a c-s wants to prevent anyone else from having the birth of their choice - it's a pity the same courtesy isn't granted the other way. Also, I think you contradict yourself. 400 women a week don't die of having a pee or a poo anywhere - so it's clearly a very different business from childbirth. Women's bodies clearly aren't as adapted to having babies as they are to peeing or pooing. In fact, due to the fact that we have evolved big heads for our large brains and small pelvises to facilitate our upright walking, you could say that evolution has made our bodies rather spectacularly bad at giving birth safely, as your figures prove, and it is only medical intervention, including c-s that makes it as safe as it is. Before the Pill, c-s and other medical procedures a woman's life expectancy was always significantly less than a man's. And it was childbirth that made it so. Thank god for medical intervention, I think.

[Tinker]

Wells1 - go and have a drink and stop being so bloody paranoid!

[pupuce]

Make it a double Wells1.

[Demented]

Here, here for Mears and leese!!!

I think Wells1 might need more than a drink! Maybe someone could get her some Diamorphine!!!

[SueDonim]

LOL - maybe we should have a whip-round to buy Wells a bottle of gin and a session with a birth counsellor, to release all that angst.

[tiktok]

Today's Observer publishes a report of a study that views with concern the rise in sections, and the hidden long term after effects - infertilty, trauma, pain, you name it. It's not clear whether the whole study differentiates between elective and emergency sections, though, but it's worth reading for up to date stats and analysis.


www.observer.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,6903,687998,00.html

Wells, no one is criticising appropriate medical intervention (where do you get your strange notions from?). Of course caesarean sections save lives. Most people here seem to be in favour of someone who is truly desperately fearful of vaginal birth being given the choice to have a section, alongside a chance to talk through fears and terrors, and being given a full understanding of the options....and we'd all be in favour of sections when obstetrically necessary.

Only one person - as I said - stated she couldn't imagine someone 'fancying' a section, and she said that from her own experience of having had one.

Everyone, including that person, apart from you manages to state their view without drawing lurid pictures of agony and blood and being torn to ribbons. Everyone, apart from you, accepts that women may have deep emotional responses to birth of whatever sort....but you seem to think people only feel the way they do about sections because they have been 'brainwashed' by the NCT!!! No, only you know the real truth...that women are inevitably in cruellest agony with vaginal birth because you've heard 'em yelling. Well, I have yelled for Britain during my labours, and that was the way I wanted it. How do you know what other women 'really' feel, when if they don't feel what you feel, you reckon they must have been brainwashed?

As if.....

[SueDonim]

It sudenly struck me that it is perfectly possible to have a totally painfree labour without having a CS. One can always opt for an epidural for a vaginal birth.

[leese]

Demented, SueDonim, Tiktok, Pupuce etc etc - you lot make the job worthwhile!!
Apologies to Wells1 if you thought I was being insulting - felt a little insulted myself to be honest. Can't imagine what has led you to think you are judged a 'bad person' due to your choice of c/s - it has been said again and again this is just not the case, but you seem to want to ignore this to find something to attack. And wasn't Posh recently voted a 'mum of the year'?
Midwives ARE here to promote the enjoyable birth experience, so please do not imply otherwise. If someone requires a c/s, then along with the surgical team, we help to make this as relaxed an experience as possible. If a c/s is not required, my job is to help the woman thru the process of vaginal birth. I am just not happy with the thought that a woman could 'choose' c/s for no real reason, other than maternal preference. Like it or not Wells1, it may only take 10 mins to deliver the baby, but it IS major surgery. It takes a good deal longer to sew you back together again!!

[bossykate]

hi wells1

clearly this is something you feel very strongly about!

your posts seem to imply that you have felt criticised or undermined in some way for having had a cs, even though in your case there was no other option.

would you mind explaining a little further what has made you feel this way? you do mention the patsy kensit example, but i was wondering if you had been the subject of some unthinking comments from people you know, or maybe it is the "too posh to push" (not a very helpful media invention, imo) media coverage?

in case you are wondering have i read this thread, i did notice your references to friends who had had bad experiences of vaginal deliveries, but i thought you were making a different point re criticism of c-sections.

[Wells1]

I have to say - I can't imagine why anyone would think I feel paranoid - after all the nice and very non-personal things that have been said about me here. I find it particularly strange that if I say that people have told me blood-curdling things about their own birth (including the death of a much wanted baby), that counts for nothing (note, those aren't my opinions, they are the opinions of real live women who have recently had babies). And even stranger, that if I say that I think the whole natural birth experience sounds horrible, then that gives some of you the right to attack me in a deeply personal way. Some of you seem to think that you are defined by your birth experience and to in any way suggest it sounds unpleasant is to insult you. I just don't follow that at all. Or why criticising one midwife's complete lack of professionalism is to attack all of them.I think the whole tenor of this thread proves to me what I was saying, if you support women's right to have a c-s then you are a bad person who deserves to be insulted. I happen to think that homebirths sound dodgy, but would NEVER suggest that they shouldn't be available to women who want them - and on the NHS too. For some of you, it seems tolerance of other people's opinions is only valid so long as those opinions tally with yours in the first place. And apparently I'm the only one who draws a lurid picture - er, what about all those references to women dying of c-s? All that stuff about children with various disorders caused by c-s? As for the sense of being constantly criticised - how about all the sneering at Zoe Ball at not being fit to do a programme about childbirth becauase she had a c-s? Or the constant stuff in the papers about being 'too posh to push', or the endless stuff about how terrible the rising rate of c-s is? Not to mention the stuff about me here. But you win, I retire defeated - it's too upsetting to read any more of this stuff.

[honeybunny]

I'd like to add my 2p worth. I had a cs 1st time after a failed induction at 42+2 (v high baby, never engaged and labour could not be properly established, despite 12hours of effort). This time I was offered the choice, and after lengthy discussions with MW and obstetrician, decided on cs again. Bigger baby, cs if no spontaneous labour anyway, on edd, would not be encouraged to go overdue etc etc. I can't praise my mw highly enough for the advise and encouragement I received. She listened to my thoughts about it and positively encouraged my decision. Likewise the mw in hospital (unfortunately a different mw to my ante natal mw, but excellent just the same)was there to help me as much as possible to be involved in the "birth" process.
I certainly never felt "criticised" for my choice, and although a few people (usually completely unknown to me when asking when it was due and hearing that I had a date booked) said, "easy life" and "too posh to push, love?" I still felt I was doing the right thing for me and ds2. There may not have been a medical reason for a cs this time, but the chances of ending up with a cs anyway with my obstetric history were high enough to push me in that direction.

All in all, it was a very positive experience for me, helped by having such wonderful support from the whole medical team. There have been no regrets and so far mum and babe are doing really well.

[MalmoMum]

My vaginal delivery was fantastic (quick, had gas and air at the end, took about 2.5 hours, difficulty running a half marathon in that time these days). I could never have anticipated that and was considering an elective ceasarian early in the pg as I was 35 and thought things might not be working too well.

I was def helped by genes and encouraging people. I don't think ye average celebrity is so lucky and end up thinking it will be horrid.

Wells, you had a medical intervention because you needed it. I don't think the original Ceasarian (Ceasar Augustus) was called after the (dead) mother.

I've been sitting on my hands for the last few days watching this thread unfold. As Suedomin considers, if I had had the same degree of doping necessary for a Ceasarian then I could have cut out a lot of sensations. I did find the pain bearable for the mostpart and knew it was part of a deal (which worked for me) that gave my body the feedback to respond to the childbirth mechanism.

I think I would have missed out on so much if I hadn't given it a go.

[Crunchie]

Wells I just want to come put in support of you, I do think there has been much bashing going on here, rather than a reasonable debate. I've had two sections, first time I had to, and second time I eventually chose to ( I wanted to give nature a go, but then it decided it didn't want to let me). Anyway I am pleased i the long run, although I have to disagree in one aspect. I did feel guilty after the first one, not due to the NCT, but becasue I ended up having no choice and felt my body had let me down (the baby was born at 27 weeks). However 2nd time around I felt great.

Also I was asked if I would have prefered a natural labour, not my medical professionals, but by friends with kids. Their attitude was 'poor you' have a c-section, and 'well I had a 24 hr labour and it was horrible' as if I chose to take the easy way out and should feel bad.

This is the attitude that I think Wells is angry about, I know that no-one questions a women if she has a vaginal birth, but they do pass judgement on those of us who don't.

Intrestingly all my friends without kids are terrified of the idea of birth and all say they would prefer a c-section. Now lots of you might think that would change if they knew all about the 'beauty' of it. I doubt that, we work on a magzine that is dedicated to pregnancy/birth and babies, we see the pictures, read the stories daily. Even I can't look at the pics without feeling yuk, and I've got 2.

[2under2]

Wells1 childbirth has become safer mainly because around 1850-1900 doctors realised that washing their hands between sticking them up different women's privates was actually a good idea. Once this became common knowledge survival rates for women improved dramatically. The main cause of death was puerperal fever, not baby stuck or whatever. Increased c-section rates do not improve outcomes for mothers and babies. Countries that do more sections (than necessary - I appreciate that sections do save lives and have a purpose) have a higher infant and mother mortality rate, e.g. the USA. The World Health Organisation is not sponsored by the NCT, you know. They too have a reason for recommending low c-section rates. C-sections are not usually easier on the baby - e.g. even babies who have been diagnosed with very severe heart defects in utero are often born vaginally because this is considered safer and less stressful on their system.
Of course we can all come up with anecdotal evidence - I too know someone who had a fourth degree tear and had to be recut, but she is fine now. Not so my friend who gets to attend the weekly pain management clinic at the hospital since her son was born by c-section three years ago and the surgeon managed to cause severe nerve damage.

[tiktok]

Crunchie, but many women are questioned by their peers and medical professionals for having a vaginal birth - ask anyone who has had one caesarean and wants to have a V-BAC, or someone who has a breech baby, or anyone who departs from the 'norm', their desire will be qestioned. People such as Wells gasp because they think it's 'mad' to want a vaginal birth, and accuse them of only feeling they don't want a caesarean because they have been 'brainwashed'....I still think that's a massive cheek

Giving birth vaginally is still by far the majority form of birth (78 per cent) and it's the physiological norm. So friends and colleagues might ask out of curiosity why you had a section - I s'pose it's none of their biz, really, but I am surprised you think there's some criticism implied in it.

Mothers are interested in other people's birth stories - sites like this one are a good demonstration of that

I have been asked why I opted for home birth a gazillion times, and I have heard from many people 'oh, I wouldn't have liked that' or 'I wish I could have chosen that' and from people who thought I had an easier time, and those who thought I had a hard time, compared to them. But I don't tear my hair and say people who opt for the (social) norm of hospital birth are 'mad', or think they are criticising me. Well, I suppose some are, but I don't care ...I did what was right for me and my baby, and that's what I want everyone to have the chance to do, and to have the full information in order to do it.

[Demented]

You're right tiktok, I was met by a few gasps this time round when I announced I would like a home birth (unfortunately I am not able to have one as I carry Group Strep B and in my area the IV antibiotics needed are not available with a home birth). My dad was particulary dubious and still thinks I am mad for wanting to get home after six hours (don't know if this will be allowed either).

[Marina]

Tiktok, I could kiss you for that Observer link! It was such a HUGE relief from my pov to read that this BJOG research related mostly to emergency c-sections - mine was an unavoidable elective. I note also that in the Observer's detailed reporting the incidence of secondary infertility following emergency c-sections was HALF the figure quoted in a different press report I read on the train this morning.

[bells2]

Wells 1, your circle of friends do seem to have been amazingly unlucky where ?natural?childbirth is concerned. I am often reluctant to speak too glowingly of my own birth experience because I am always worried that women who have not gone down that route could interpret my extremely positive experience as a reproach against their own choices / experience. Same goes for breast feeding.

Like most, I have absolutely no difficulty with c-sections as a medical necessity or because a women has an overwhelming fear of labour. I do however have a slight niggle re women who choose to have a C-section simply in order for it to fit in with work commitments or because they want to stay ?honeymoon fresh?. Parenting is such an unpredictable, messy, overwhelming occupation, requiring a high level of unselfish devotion and I sometimes wonder whether mothers who want to ensure the delivery is convenient are prepared for the huge level of upheaval and lifestyle changes that a baby will inevitable bring.

[pupuce]

I think Tiktok is right- what ever you choose.... elective c, vaginal birth, home birth,... you will have some people who have an opinion (not necessarily positive)... usually because of their own experience or fears.
As Tiktok I know as many people who admire me for my home births as who who think I was mad... at the end of the day, it was MY decision and in a way I started not to care what others had to say and believe me .... many started telling me horror stories of friends. It didn't change my mind and I had a wonderful experience.
What ever you go for - you need to feel positive about it and know that it is right for you and your baby. I think Honeybunny shows us a wonderful example of that.

P.S. I have felt that Zoe Ball who went for elective c-section was going for the easy way out.... but if she felt no confidence in being able to have a vaginal birth... she probably would have had a hard time of it anyway. All she wanted was a healthy baby and feel positive about it. That seems to be what she got.

[JanZ]

I've not really entered this debate, but thought I'd add my own experience.

The wonderful thing about childbirth is the way the endorphins "change" the memory. You might be screaming at one point, but once the baby arrives, it all fades away. I spent the whole of the day after ds was born trying to remember why I had delayed having the diamorphine - I knew there was a reason, but my memory was already blurring. (The reason was because I knew there was a possibility that I would have to be induced if I didn't progress fast enough, as my waters had broken the day before).

My recollection is that I had a positive experience of childbirth - yet others might not consider it to be, as it ended up being forceps, episiotomy, tear and stitches. I had gas and air and diamorphine - and a relaxing tape that I insisted was on all the time. Apparently I got quite distressed every time it finished, and dh had to play the (shorter) CD version of it while it rewound. For me, that is my main memory of the (long) labour - plus the joy when ds was delivered.

I never screamed that much (so dh tells me) - in the end I needed the forceps because I was so tired that I was starting to sleep through the contractions (!!) and ds was turned to the side and not descending.

I did have a "fear" of an epidural - and when they offered me one prior to the forceps, I turned it down on the basis that I didn't want the "risk" (in my head) of one, plus it was take too long to get organised anyway (and I was soooooo tired) and that although they told me that the alternative of a puddendal block might not work, that the pain of the forceps would be over and done with really quickly.

In the event, the block worked - and interestingly, my dh, who had been really concerned with how he would cope with seeing me in pain, (and had got quite distressed while the forceps were being organised), was then happy to watch them stitch me up, as I was so obviously NOT in distress.

I also had a "fear" of a cs - not per se - ie if it were genuniely necessary - but because I didn't want to be one of the statistics of those who had a cs "to cover the doctor's back". That might sound harsh - but is influenced by my dad, who is a doctor and who has always been outspoken in his concern about how medical decisions are now being influenced by fears of litigation - and his opinion that that has caused a high proportion of the increase in the number of caesarians.

[Demented]

Wells 1 I realise you have bowed out of this debate but if you are out there I just wanted you to know that the criticism you have received has not been so much due to your opinions, we are all entitled to our opinions and it is fun to discuss and debate our differences. Any criticism received certainly from myself and as far as I can see from most of the others has been regarding your attitude! You sound like one angry woman! In your last post you say that we have won, I would like you to know that I certainly did not enter into this debate with winning or losing in mind and have never felt this to be the issue with discussions on Mumsnet.