"Too posh to push" ?

[jasper]

I know this is a clumsy phrase but at least we all know what it means.
Does anyone actually know of a woman ( themselves even) for whom this is/was the case?

[mears]

Babies born by C/S are more prone to breathing difficulties initially because they have not had pressure exerted on their chests to 'squeeze' the fluid out their lungs which is part of the 'natural' process of a vaginal birth.

I am very keen not to enter this debate, except to say that C/S is not safer than a vaginal birth unless there are maternal or fetal complications. However, for a woman's mental wellbeing it may be the safest option.

[WideWebWitch]

I don't think women should be made to feel guilty about the kind of birth they end up having. The end result is the main thing. And caesarians save lives. I also think whoever invented the phrase "too posh to push" should be shot - it's offensive, frankly.

I do think though that maybe we should be concerned about the rising level of c-sections. I think I'm right in saying they're at 25% in the States? Surely 1 in 4 women don't need one? Or is it that 1 in 4 women want one? I don't know but would be interested in the answer.

I don't think for me not fancying pain and indignity would be a reason for a c-section though (which, however you dress it up is major surgery). If you don't fancy pain you can have drugs. If you don't fancy indignity, er, not sure how you get round that one! I would have a section to save my life or that of my baby though, like a shot, definitely. I'm just not sure it should be offered just because you don't fancy labour much. Who does? Not sure what I think on this actually, Prufrock, maybe you've got a point - emotional fear/terror is as valid as medical necessity perhaps.

Willow2, if you're interested, I did manage a no intervention home birth with just gas and air. But it was blissful ignorance on my part about how painful it would be plus pure luck and my massive hips - I don't blame anyone for going for the full drugs experience and swore I would next time the minute it was over...Still might! I agree, natural birth doesn't equal strong minded and c-section doesn't indicate weak minded. So I'm firmly on the fence then

[bells2]

I agree that women should be free to choose the type of birth they want. However, one aspect that bothers me is that a number of women I know are absolutely adamant that when the time comes, they want a caesarian. This is purely and simply because they perceive it as being the 'easier' option in terms of pain (and damage to their bodies) which is clearly not necessarily the case. Natural birth was a very positive experience for me and I think it's a shame that so many people seem to focus exclusively on the pain element. Having said that, it is their choice.

On Claudia Schiffer, a friend of mine was in her ante natal class and apparently she wasn't planning a caesar ahead of the accident.

[SueW]

Pupuce - if you want to know more about episiotomy, read 'Episiotomy - Challenging Obstetric Intervention'. My current bedtime reading!

[bundle]

oooh, this all got a bit heated didn't it?
I still haven't decided re: my next delivery in April (following dd1's emergency c-section). But my worst-case scenario would be to have another long, troublesome labour leaving me tired & then ending up with another c-section. yes this colours my view, and I understand the risks involved with all types of delivery. dh still speaks proudly of the way I coped with the delivery of our first baby and I don't particularly want/need to find out what it's like to feel 'proud' of my body for delivering naturally. I'm having a baby, not a birth

[mears]

Bundle - you would not have a long troublesome labour because if, as a previous section, you were not making progress you would be advised to have another C/S. The best case scenario is that you had an uncomplicated vaginal birth and were home ASAP. I would always recommend women with previous C/S to try for a vaginal delivery ( if they asked for advice) because once you have a second section it is more likely that subsequent babies will be by C/S as well. With repeated C/S there are more complications such as scarring and adhesions which are best avoided IMO.

[bundle]

thanks for that Mears - my big fear is a repeat of the vomiting I had all the way through my first labour (even as they were putting me on the operating table for the c-section ) so my consultant has advised an early epidural - to suppress the surge in hormones which she thinks made me so sick - which I know would slow things down, so I do worry that I wouldn't progress as quickly as if I let things happen 'naturally'. I hadn't expected the puking at all and it made me very tired - all those muscles heaving at sweet f.a. in my tum! - and dehydrated (had a drip eventually).

[forest]

If I think women giving birth unassisted makes them strong minded it means I'm not as I didn't give birth that way yet I feel positive about the way I gave birth. just because I admire the way they delivered babies doesn't imply I think you are weak. I've never thought any less of my friends who had emergency c-sections. Yet I still defend my right to feel proud of my body for delivering my baby albeit with the encouagement of a midwife and dh.
You say you specifically didn't attack/undermine/criticise other people's birth experiences & choices but you did attack women giving birth unassisted "So I would say that giving birth with nobody else present isn't so much a sign of confidence, as of utter reckless stupidity. Not to mention a totally misplaced romanticism about the real nature of childbirth" and I don't feel I have attacked anyone for having a c-section.
Right I am having no more to do with this,

[tigermoth]

agree with others here who say every woman should choose and then be supported. This occurred to me as I skimmed through the postings:

Women who fall pregnant accidently and then ask for an abortion on the grounds a pregnancy causing extreme mental suffering are not roundly condemned by all and sundry for their choice. To my way of thinking, those women who want babies, but cannot mentally face the idea of labour should not be roundly condemned by society either.

[willow2]

By the way, I was just genuinely interested in how many of us had managed a completely natural birth - i wasn't having a pop!

[berries]

Forest (slowly peeks head above wall), just wanted to say that I think I know where you are coming from. I still remember very clearly that final 'push' where beloved dds came out, the first after 13 hrs & 4 hrs pushing. Yes, it was an effort, and, like anything (even an extra tough session at the gym) I did feel proud of myself and proud of my body for going through that & producing such an amazing baby (both my babies are absolutely amazing ) This doesnt mean to say there is anything wrong with a cs, and if anyone had said at any stage that either dd was in distress I would probably have run to theatre myself, but for me, I'm glad I didn't have to.
BTW dd2 was born with no assistance or drugs (very nearly no hospital either - just managed to get there) but I don;t think that was down to confidence, just luck - & good 'child bearing' hips as mw called it!

[jasper]

What's wrong with feeling proud of pushing your baby out? I felt incredibly proud , AND lucky that things had not gone wrong in any way.

Just because you feel proud of giving birth whatever way you did does not mean you look down on anyone who had a different experience, either by choice or through circumstance.

[aloha]

Forest, you said, or at least I understood you to say, that it was a good/brave thing to do to give birth with nobody else present. You don't mean that do you? That would be bonkers. Suppose you started to bleed? The baby couldn't emerge etc etc/

[pupuce]

Well call me bonkers Aloha... I'd do it if I went for number 3.
I know 3 people who have done it!

[Tissy]

but pupuce, you have the training/ experience to know if something wasn't right. And what about dh/ dp does he deserve to be excluded?

[forest]

Ok - I am posting again. I do think it is incredibly brave thing to do to have a baby by yourself whether it is a good thing to do - well I think that is up to the individual that is having a baby. I personally wouldn't want to give birth without a midwife and dh. I needed the reassurance that if anything went wrong there was someone there to help me. However, I do admire women that give birth that way and from what I have read it made a huge impact on their feelings about giving birth and, yes, they came across as being very superior about it but I don't see anything wrong with that. I was glad I had drugs and was in hospital. Therefore, they could be as superior as they wanted towards me it wouldn't take away from the immense joy I felt at seeing my baby. Nor would it take away from the experience I had.
And from what I have read women that choose to give birth unassisted are doing so intentionally and have done alot of reading, spoken to other people and have usually given birth before so know what to expect. It isn't a case of oops I forgot to go to hospital or contact the midwife. What did your friends think about their unassisted births Pupuce?
And I am glad there are others that felt proud of their bodies for pushing a baby out.
And at the end of the day, Aloha, you have a healthy ds that you adore and I have a healthy dd that I adore and that to me is really more important than how they popped into the world

[Chinchilla]

I was adamant before the birth of ds that I only wanted a TENS, and Gas/air. I am allergic to Pethedine, and was totally against Epidurals (injection in spine...bleugh), and CS's (scary and I wanted a 'natural' birth as much as possible). However, due to stress on ds, and his op position, and various other problems too many to mention, I had to have EVERYTHING except a CS. I was nearly given that too. In the end, I had a lovely birth because I was not in any pain, and I was oblivious to the dangers that ds was in, because dh did not mention the blips on the monitor. He spent about 14 hours of the 24 hour labour in a panic but trying to hide it from me.

Looking back, I realise how naive I was. I would have been proud to have been able to give birth without assistance. I don't know why, but I would, so I can see where Forest was coming from. I gave in to the Epidural, as it was practically forced on me, but I cried, and felt like I had failed. However, once given, it was fantastic, and I did not look back. I would ask for an epidural again without a second thought. However, I would not ask for a CS unless absolutely necessary. If I have to have one, I hope that I don't have to be knocked out, because I know how bad I feel after anaesthesia, and I did enjoy having ds with me as soon as the Apgar tests had been done.

I have no views as to whether CS is 'good' or 'bad'. I think that it is something that should not be discounted, as the safety of the child and mother are paramount. I have no doubts that I would have died 100 years ago, without all the technology we have now, and am thankful for it.

[aloha]

I think we have to remember that there you never give birth alone - there are two people there, one of them a baby with no say. I have to say, I am genuinely shocked that someone would risk their child's life by giving birth completely alone. I have never even heard of such a thing! I can't believe that people can get so upset (rightly) by someone popping out and leaving older children alone for a couple of hours or by letting them ride in a car without a seatbelt, but would think this was OK. Surely this is really a child safety issue? I am thinking of all the people on this very site who have spoken of the dangers their children were in at the time of their birth as well as themselves. For example, SofiaAmes had a VBAC, but bled afterwards and might have died at home (IIRC), let alone if she was on her own completely. Then what would have happened to her baby! I would definitely have died under those circumstances (even if I had had a child before). I'm sorry but on a pure child safety issue this sounds totally irresponsible to me, and a world away from any issue related to cs or homebirth. I think you have a right to risk your own life, but who would willingly risk their baby's life?

[aloha]

I mean, what the hell would you do if things went wrong - as they do? I think there is a huge difference between being brave and totally reckless.

[pupuce]

DH would be looking after my other 2 in the same house as I'd be in... Women who have unassisted births (in the UK) usually have their partner very near by... and sometimes in the room but they have no medical support.

Aloha- with all due respect...I respect your strong views about caesarean... please respect mine... I would not put my baby's life into jeopardy... I do not wish to argue this with you as I also feel a caesarean is NOT necessarily safe... but l'll drop this thread.

[pupuce]

Aloha - one more thing... you need to understand (better) why people would do this... before you judge them.

[jasper]

Aloha I found this site a while back. I am horrified at the idea but each to their own.

unassisted birth

[Chinchilla]

When I said 'unassisted', I meant no drugs BTW, not no-one else around!

[mears]

Sorry - I can't agree that unassisted births are a good thing. I have come across women who have delivered unexpectedly at home and have been brought in having haemorrhaged badly due to vaginal tears or the placenta not delivering. Now, fair enough it may be that these women are terrified as they have not planned it, therefore there have been complications. It is breaking the law to knowingly have an unassisted birth, so I am sure women just have to lie and say they delivered quicker than expected.
However, I can understand why women would want unassisted birth. Hospital births can be plagued with interventions. It is up to midwives to stop trying to control labour, but assist mothers in their choices for labour. Even if that means sitting in the corner with your mouth shut most of the time

[bundle]

thank god for the voice of reason in Mears.