"Too posh to push" ?

[jasper]

I know this is a clumsy phrase but at least we all know what it means.
Does anyone actually know of a woman ( themselves even) for whom this is/was the case?

Thanks Suedonnim for that good factual stuff which made very interesting reading.Too true about how fortunate we are with all our choices and medical advances which are there if we need them. My granny died giving birth.

I suppose the thing about a planned c-section is that you would go in at an appointed time, you would not have to go through any initial painful contractions, get your epi ( or GA) , and they would not start till you were completely anaesthetised! Hey, it's begining to sound quite attractive! Just kidding, I hope not to need one. I read a birth story recently where the woman was on her third labour, having had no problems with the first two. Some serious complication developed and as she was being wheeled to theatre for a c-section all she could think about was "Oh dear, I always skipped over that bit in the books as I never expected it would apply to me" . I will be in the same boat if I need one.
Incidentally Lindy, can I join you in stating I too dislike the whole pregnancy/childbirth/pain/mess stitches bit! ( although obviously elements of the birth itself are pretty wonderful - like the early bearable stuff and the very end when you get your baby)
If that makes me a fraud or not a real mum, count me in.

Did anyone else spot Crunchie's v funny typo about wanting a "virginal" birth second time around ?:0)

allow me to have another shot at that smiley face

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Robinw, there is research on these issues, see for example a good survey of women several months after birth - full text is here www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2393/1/4.

It's called Achieving sustainable quality in maternity services ? using audit of incontinence and dyspareunia to identify shortfalls in meeting standards.

It shows that incontinence and pain on intercourse are measurable after-effects of pregnancy and birth, whatever the sort of birth, though overall, instrumental delivery with forceps or ventouse (as opposed to normal, and section) seems to have the greatest effect.

I am sure there is stuff on episiotomy and/or perineal damage as well. One problem with the sort of comparison you're after is that it is not simple to compare sections with all other births - sections can be elective or not, and vaginal births can be of many different types, each one of which may impact differently on health and recovery.

The authors of that paper make the point that women are not always given the right sort of help with these problems, or even the opportunity to report them.

I suspect that after-effects of birth - of whatever sort, section or not - tend to be under-reported, and the fact that problems can go on for months or more is also under-reported.

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Oh my God, this is a scary discussion board. I had a really traumatic vaginal delivery last time and have been umming & erring about whether or not to have a c-section this time (due in 7 weeks). As it is this baby is still breech & if it remains that way I am definitely having a c-section. However, I am terrified by the thought of such a major op and having just read Suedonim's post I feel even more concerned.
Does anyone know whether the mortality rates given on the NHS facts for c-sections have separated out elective and emergency caesarians??
Also what sort of bladder damage are they talking about and how does your bowel get damaged??
Aaahhhh!

I'm glad I wasn't aware of those facts, Suedonim, before my semi-emergency c-section after 24 hours in labour and those three dreaded words 'failure to progress'. I had never considered a c-section during my pregnancy and was not prepared for it; I will never forget the feeling of my innards being pulled left, right and centre, but the stitching was quick and my only regret is I don't remember ds being shown to me immediately afterwards, I was so spaced out.

My plan this time around is for a vaginal delivery but if circumstances permit otherwise I would agree without hesitation in having another c-section if it was best for the baby.

Bugsy, dont panic! I had fairly straightforward section with my daughter as she was large(9 lb 12 oz) and facing the wrong way and so was not coming out any other way. I had already been induced, drips, epidural etc etc by then so I was quite relieved really as I was more frightened of the alternatives. The operation was a bit uncomfortable (its a rummaging sensation), though I was fairly drugged up by then. As jodee says its all a bit of a haze, thankfully my husband videoed us in recovery as otherwise I would not have remembered much. My only regret was the conversation meant we knew the sex before we could find out ourselves. I recovered well despite an infection (in fact regret 2 is that I had a legitimate excuse to try class A drugs but passed it up). The plus side was that because I was in hospital with nothing else to do I cracked breast feeding, I am not sure I would have persisted at home.

The whole too posh to push thing really irks me. The sub text seems to be that we are all a bit weedy and not prepared to suffer. Everyone does what they think is the right thing for them and their baby and should not be made to feel guilty about it.

Bugsy, My experience is very similar to CathB, emergency c-section after induction, ventouse and forceps & baby lying wrong way. The experience wasn't at all traumatic and I healed very well, just a bit of numbness on the scar for a few weeks.
I would definately second the advice re getting someone to help you with heavy lifting etc. for the first couple of weeks. I don't know how old your other child is but if they are used to being lifted up for a cuddle, you may like to prepare them that whilst the cuddle is still possible you won't be able to lift them for a while.
Good luck in whatever you decide and I look forward to hearing about the new arrival.

THis is website for the Expert Advisory Group on Caesarian Section in Scotland. Lots of data here.

If anyone is concerned about a previous bad birth experience (CS or not) NCT on 0870 444 8707 or The Birth Crisis Network on 020 7485 4725 can offer you a chance to talk it over.

This takes you to a site for Planning a Good CS Birth .

I've just heard that a friend of a friend had an op this week to repair her bladder TWO YEARS after a very traumatic birth - the midwives lost the baby's heartbeat and told her to push immediately, even though she was nowhere near ready to, and subsequently her pelvic floor and bladder were badly damaged. I think it was too later to go for a c-section. I just think it's terrible that the poor girl has had to be on a wait list for that long, suffering incontinence and, no doubt, pain.

Problem with all tricky labours ( is there any other kind??) is you never know how it might have gone had you and the medical team made other choices. I had a fairly traumatic first labour but have no way of knowing if it would have been less so had we not opted for...whatever at each stage.You don't get to do the same labour twice!
All I know is that I was given all the options at every stage and had complete faith in my midwife ( who is a friend) and all the hospital staff and was just relieved to have a healthy baby placed in my arms at the end of it.
Intereating aside - after delivery from hell number one I "bonded" imediately with my baby. Delivery number two was straightforward and pretty wonderful as labours go, and when I was handed my baby I felt nothing and it took me a very long time (weeks) to bond.
Perhaps I am an exception, but I have heard the opposite tends to be true.( more medical intervertion leading to problems bonding)

Malmomum, Pupuce - sorry have been away for a week and as a regular celeb-gossiper I was puzzled to see your quote from Nic Appleton 'She says I gave birth naturally and it was the most incredible experience. I was stuck in a wow the whole time...I said to Liam, don't you wish you could have done that?' The thing is I was reading a glossy interview a couple of months ago (I really thought it was Marie Claire too- but might be wrong)that clearly stated something along the lines of: with her perfect figure back in shape... blah blah...you wouldn't think she had given birth just 5 months ago except for a faint scar on her stomach from her c-section!!!! Who's been telling lies I wonder??? Surely not the woman who ditched her precious babe at 3 weeks for a holiday in the sun??!! ( I will never let her forget that!)
True what was said about Mel Blatt though she definitely had back problems. Oooo...I'd love to start up a website devoted to picking celebs birthing stories to bits. Can't believe I was away for the whole 'Zoe Ball' thread - gutted

(For those of you who are thinking about embarking on an onslaught of my less-than-PC attitude to other peoples private lives - I AM only joking!! )

Apologies for breaking up thread there - but have SOOOOO much to catch up on after being away

Hey Lizzer - I was thinking about posting a "Have you seen Lizzer" (missing person)... I had noticed that you had dissapeared !
Glad you're back !

Lizzer, do let us know if you come across the source of your counter information. Hope you enjoyed your time away!

As I said, I had to read it twice for the content to sink in. The quote still rings hollow to me as when you ask most women about their delivery you get told how long it took and the pain relief they used.

Pupuce - ahhh thanks for nearly sending out the search party for me- you can tell I've not been harrasing you over GF for a while, usually you'd be calling in the lynching mob!!!

Malmomum - can't believe that only 2 weeks ago I threw out all of the glossy mags that had been building up under my bed - including the article. BUT I do remember it was Instyle magazine, from about 3 or 4 months ago. The appletons weren't on the cover (I don't think) but had big spread inside (am I really this sad??!) so if anyone's still got it under their beds check it out please...!!!

Lizzer - Don't worry I am familiar with your disciples (and they do take over for you on the GF fromt) : SueDonim and Scrummymummy

LOL, Pupuce! Where is Scrummymummy, anyway?

Here I am! Home computer is broken at the moment and I am distraught! Sneaky looks at work are just not enough for me.

Thanks for noticing Suedonim

Oh, no, a broken computer! I hope getting it mended is No 1 on your 'To Do' list, Scrummy!

Pupuce, you can join too, y'know - I'm sure you if bin the book and have a bit of brainwashing reversal therapy - you'll be fine

(ooo, as I keep saying, you know I love you really!)

Out of interest - anyone see the chat this teatime on the Richard and Judy show about the right to choose elective caesarean? Vanessa Feltz did herself proud.

Didn't actually see it Leese, but have read articles written by her on the subject. Have to agree, she does put her point forward about this very well. Quite a good article in the Mail yesterday on it too (can't remember who written by).