"Too posh to push" ?

[jasper]

I know this is a clumsy phrase but at least we all know what it means.
Does anyone actually know of a woman ( themselves even) for whom this is/was the case?

[kicsr]

Enid, blame it on the hormones and the fact that I type quicker than I think sometimes!! I am not sure what I want to do about my situation, I am quick to lobby womans rights about childbirth, (I do hate do-gooders who say we should do this that and the other etc)BUT I am too scared to give birth NATURALLY or via C SECTION and at 37 weeks and 3 days, I guess its a little late to change my mind on having babies!!!
:-)

[Enid]

Don't worry kicsr - you aren't alone - I'm not due for another 5 months and I'm already worried!!!

[kicsr]

Marina,
I have heard as many scare stories re Natural births as I have re C sections so please don't worry about scaring me. THIS IS A FORUM AND YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO SHARE YOUR EXPERIENCES WHETHER THEY ARE POSITIVE OR NEGATIVE.
I have heard of complications like yours before and for me its just another thing I have to bare in mind.
As you know I have until Monday to make this decision and literally like on election day, I have a for and against, pro and con list where the pendelum keeps swinging from one method to the other. What happened to the Stork or finding babies in cabbage patches, this seemed to happen more often when I was a child!

[mears]

kiscr - if labour goes along smoothly you will be glad you made the decision to labour. It is precisely because this is your first baby that the consultant does not want to jump in and possibly do an unnecessary C/S. They resultant surgery to your womb can have an impact on future pregnancies.

I do not know any midwives or Consultants who are anti C/S. My own birth experiences have no bearing on my decision making at work other than the fact I know from personal experience that vaginal birth can be an enjoyable experience - that's possibly why I did it four times. Incidently I was stuck to a monitor on all 4 occasaions and one was preterm ( without need for epidural).

I have scrubbed at hundreds of Caesarean sections and that gives me a different viewpoint. As I have stated before Caesarean sections are an absolutely necessary option for many women. For some they most definately are not.

As far as NHS taxes and NI payment comes into it, unfortunately the cost of the NHS is not going to be able to be sustained by all sorts of reasons. There is not enough money in the system to finance all the variuos needs in the NHS, even with the extra money that will be raised by the Budget.
The midwifery staff shortages in many areas, especially in England resulting in poor levels of care for women in labour, does mean that resources need to be looked at. If reducing money spent on unnecessary surgery be it C/S or cosmetic etc. allowed more employment of doctors, nurses and midwives to reduce waiting lists throughout the country - would that not be a good thing? Perhaps women who want to choose elective C/S for no other reason than their own personal choice should do so privately.
I look forward to the ensuing debate!!

[mears]

Marina,

I can assure you that Fallopian tubes are not 'mangel' at C/S. In fact the surgeon usually checks the tubes and ovaries after the uterus is repaired for any abnormatlies at the time of delivery and that is in the casenotes. Antibiotics are usually given at the time of delivery to hopefully prevent any type of infection. There are women who have secondary infertility after vaginal deliveries also. Hopefully you will be successful becoming pregnant again - good luck! I know many women who become pregnant mid investigaion.

[kicsr]

Mears, I appreciate the time you spent on your response and please be ensured that any comments I make in regards to medical professionals are NOT directly targeted at you personally!!! :-) xx

However I agree with money shortages within the NHS, I don't see how C sections can be put in the same catergory as Cosmetic surgery.

Why can't women have the choice between C-section and Natural labour when the pain and fear of childbirth is just too frightening for them.

Having a parent that is also privvy to information in regards to how NHS money is bujected and spent has also made me very opinioned in this arguement. I am certainly not prepared to comment publically on one particular area, but I know millions of pounds is spent on a certain group of people who certainly DO NOT DESERVE any NHS treatment and I am sorry that in your Dept of Midwifery its true, there are shortages in both staff and money.

Due to this money being spent unwisely, (and thankfully from next tax year onwards) independant auditors will watch how this NHS money is spent.

I certainly don't agree that woman who want a C section electively should pay privately for it.

xxx

[Tillysmummy]

I think that is a very good point. The choice should be there but it must be a lot cheaper for the NHS when labour is natural and therefore going privately for an elective (if there are no medical complications so not in Kiscr's case) would be a good option. After all, it is also the after care normally necessary with a C sec that costs more money.

[Marina]

Mears, thanks for your quick and reassuring reply. These are the types of question you forget to ask at your pain-killer-addled 6 week check-up, and can't find the courage to put straight out to your GP three years down the line.
I did not mean to suggest that a surgeon would ever tie knots in things for the fun of it ...but still puzzled as to why anti-elective articles include the information that a c-section can affect subsequent fertility.

[kicsr]

Its propaganda and scare tactics to prevent people from choosing the option that is going to cost the NHS the most money.

[Tillysmummy]

Not actually entirely true although I am sure it is hyped up. My step monster had my little half sister (16 years ago now) and was not able to have another due to her surgery being screwed up. However, if we were to find the statistics, I am sure that is really rare.

[kicsr]

Of course Tilly, I hope you werent offended by my posting.

But Natural childbirth can cause gyny problems afterwards can't it that requires further surgery, ie, tearing into the rectum etc

I'm sorry to hear about your step monster
xx

[Tillysmummy]

Kicsr - not offended at all

Don't like stepmonster and she's a bit of a wicked witch so probably not a bad thing for the child that she couldn't pro-create again !!

Saucer of milk over here !!

[tiktok]

NCT's position on sections is here: www.nctpregnancyandbabycare.com/nct-online/

I don't know where NCT says about having a section meaning you may feel you are 'less of a woman' (not on either of the websites as far as I cn see) - but it is certainly true that some women do feel that way after a caesarean, but clearly not all, obviously! There's a wide range of responses to it.

The NCT position includes the fact that for some women, a previous traumatic birth or a fear of labour can be so strong, that it amounts to a medical reason for a section. Who would have a problem with that?

If you see today's BMJ (online at www.bmj.com) there's a paper about caesarean sections in Brazil, which is truly frightening. 55 per cent of births are by caesarean there, and one of the reasons is that support and care for vaginal birth is so awful, that women choose a section in order to get good doctoring. The skills to support vaginal birth are being lost as a result - and few women who have the means to pay for their treatment opt for vaginal birth.

I don't think the situation in the UK is the same, BTW, but there are similarities. I also notice that it is ok to disparage the choice to have a vaginal birth - it's mad, is it, Wells, to want to experience all this pain?? But anything that puts the view that there is a positive side to giving birth vaginally is seen as 'pressure'. I don't think it's mad to want a section or not want one. And you are out of order in ascribing madness to people who, lets face it, just think differently from you!

Come off it.

[Tillysmummy]

I think there is something very basically physical about expelling / giving birth vaginally that completes the cycle if you know what I mean. I think sometimes it may be a shock hormonally to the body because your body doesn't prepare like it does when you go into labour ? Maybe I am wrong, don't know, just thought that your body sends all sorts of hormones around when you go into labour to help ease any anxiety and help you through the pain.

[Crunchie]

Kicsr, in a way I had a situation similar to you in that I got to choose whether to have an elective c-section or to be induced. This was for my second and already had a c-section first time around. I would have had to be monitored constantly and couldn't have the relaxing natural birth (!) I wanted. They would also only be able to give me a 'trial' labour and I would have had to have a section if things failed to progress.

In the end what swayed me was the thought that it didn't seem worth going through hours of pain, strapped to a bed, with the end result being a c-section. So I decided since the baby wasn't engaged and my waters had been leaking for 24 hrs to go straight to a c-section. I made the right choice for me, and as it turned out the baby.

I wouldn't be scared either way, I have had two c-sections and I recovered well both times (although I had a wound infection second time around) I was up within 6 hours and had a shower and got rid of my catheter very quickly. Others stay in bed, it is your choice.

Please don't worry, I am glad I had some power and made a choice, since it gave me a voice in it all. I felt that had I tried labour and didn't get anywhere I would have been disappointed.

Good luck with whatever you choose, there are pros and cons on both sides.

[kicsr]

So Tictok, are you agreeing with me that in regards to childbirth, there should be a 50/50 choice, and that elective C sections should be as widely as Natural childbirth?

To understand this arguement pregnant woman should read Misconceptions by Naomi Wolf who argues why should childbirth be painful in the year 2000?

[Tillysmummy]

There is a choice isn't there Kicsr ? I know it's not as common but I though you could choose one even if you didn't have complications ?

[kicsr]

I think to be honest Tillysmummy, if I did NOT have the complications I have now, I'd go for natural, but I am arguing that there isnt the choice should one feel unable to have a natural birth.

I think if you ask for the choice with out the "need" you come against a brickwall most of the time.

Heres the saucer of milk for the earlier comment re step monster!!!!:-)

[Tillysmummy]

Oh, I didn't realise that - I thought that you could choose now even if not medically necessary (shows how informed I am !).

I would go for the elective if I was you.

[kicsr]

Crunchie

Sounds like the exact same situation as mine, except I havent had a child yet!

I'm thinking C section as I too wanted the more relaxed natural birth orginally and cant see the point of being strapped to the bed. How did you convince the consultant?

[kicsr]

Tillysmummy

I am not medically trained either, and I think you can always ask for a C section whether you need one or not, but if its on the NHS I think they make it alittle harder for you to have a C section, just because you want one, abit like the struggle some women have arguing that they want to give birth to the baby at home.

Alot of women have C sections privately for this reason.

[Demented]

Wells 1, I am assuming your earlier posting was in response to mine. I agree with you my friend having a C/S with her breech baby was probably a life saver but it doesn't get rid of the fact that she wanted more than two children and has been traumatised to the extent that she says she just couldn't face it again because they have told her that next time it would have to be an elective C/S due to her previous problems. As for your comments re natural birth in the third world and the problems caused by tears etc, being blunt we are not in the third world and tend to have our labours attended by professionals who in most cases (not all I do realise) can spot problems and deal with them before these sorts of problems arise and we are very fortunate to have our NHS and personally I believe the resources should not be wasted. Don't get me wrong with a baby due in seven weeks I am not gleeful or excited at the thought of the pain nor am I particularly enthusiastic about the grunting and pushing of a small person into the world, I do not feel that it would make me any less of a woman to need pain relief or a C/S if things were to go wrong but would choose natural childbirth over a C/S everytime (obviously the option isn't always there for everybody).

I respect your views especially as you have had a C/S before and understand that this would lead many women to prefer this next time. However don't knock natural childbirth you cannot compare it to "natural dentistry" or "natural operations". To be blunt as women we have been born with the equipment to deliver babies and I would rather use it for this if I can rather than have surgery.

[Tillysmummy]

Kicsr

I would have thought that bearing in mind your complications you should be able to insist with the consultant that you have a C/S ??

[kicsr]

Tillysmummy

You know, I am really bad at sticking up for myself and what I want. When sat in front of a Dr, I just turn to jelly!!

I can agree with your comment about "completing the cycle" with a natural birth. I'll hopefully try that method the next time!

[Tillysmummy]

Get your Partner to do it then !!! Te he !! (If you have one - don't want to assume

Re completing the cycle. That's just how I feel personally and a lot of people will feel differently I'm sure. But you know, positive or negative birth experience ( of course everyone wants it to be positive) as long as you and your little one are safe that's all that matters and in a few weeks when you are holding your beautiful little baby none of this will matter. As long as you are all healthy and safe.

Don't worry too much, enjoy the peace and quiet while you've got it !!!