Discussion amongst Mums with babies born in December 2008

[Veggiemummy]

Hope you all can find it, Moms title was perfect I thought.

LadyT I don't know if I want to stop in truth. I'm really torn. Part of me is desperate to stop as she's driving me crazy, but then the other part of me thinks what the hell would I do to calm her down if I wasn't still feeding her? She's the least calm baby I've ever encountered, she's always been full of energy and wanting to be constantly on the move, even before she could move herself, and when it's just us she is pretty hard work. She gets in grumps about everything, it's a rare nappy change/ putting on of coat/ 2 seconds too long for her taste in the high chair that doesn't result in a screaming fit. So while part of me wishes I could wean, the other part also thinks if I didn't have that time where she is feeding and I can sit down, I think I'd have a nervous breakdown trying to keep her calm

There's also an issue of what else I'd give her. There's a family history on DH's side of cow's milk intolerance - it gives him exczema and she already has that quite badly in spots - so although it's not a huge deal we don't really want her to have that as a main source of milk.

Sometimes I feel awful for feelign negatively about her, but she does seem a lot harder work that many babies of my acquaintance - well, all babies of my RL acquaintance. I was on the phone to my sister last night and she's was going on about how her DD (2.4) had just had a screaming fit and she was REALLY worried and though there must be something really wrong and I was just thinking "err.. that sounds like my DD twice a day..."

I just keep waiting for her to get "easier" and then wondering if she ever will. I guess partly she seems to have been in a bit of a holding pattern since 8 months. That's when she started crawling and cruising, and she's not really changed since then (7 months ago!). Everyone says "oh they grow so fast and change so quickly" and to me it seems like I've been frozen in time since then!

Sorry, I really didn't mean to rant and be all me-me-me but I find that MN is so wonderful to vent like this and get all your lovely messages of support etc. I'm feeling a bit worn down and though I don't think I've got anything like PND I am not enjoying her like I feel I ought to be. DH keeps talking about number 2 and I just think "oh my god another one like DD would KILL me" ...

Mmm, do see your point. To tell you the truth I know nothing about bf and have such limited experience of kids, really (can someone else offer more practical advice?)

I think some babies are harder. I think it's a fact. Doesn't mean they are any less lovely. I just wish you could have some respite.

Would she have some bottles or would that ruin the bf? (Like I said, I am woefully ignorant). COuld you try her with goat's milk like Spot?

Do you know I hadn't thought of goat's milk. Spot, if you are there, do you use that for intolerance reasons - is it better than cow's milk if there is milk intolerance in the family?

Hi there, well we have switched to it because T kept getting ear and chest infections and was very mucusy (for want of a techical term) and so far he does seem a lot less snotty and his cough has cleared up no end. We're using the Nanny Care formula but you can also buy fresh goat's milk, butter and yoghurt to cook with. I was a bit unsure about going totally dairy free but this seemed like a good compromise and I have a friend whose son is the same age as our DCs and he has been on it since he was weaned from the breast. Apparently it's a lot more easily tolerated, gentler on the stomach (goats only have one, like humans, so it has to be easier to digest than cows) and good for those with intolerances (though perhaps not allergies) to dairy.
Tis a bit pricier though.

Kiwi that sounds so so tough. I agree with LadyT that some babies are just more relaxed than others - some are very highly spirited and always on the go.
You mention that she obviously doesn't need to feed continuously at nursery and manages well there. i wonder how they find her "behaviour" (lol, she is only little) there. ie does she "scream" a lot there? It is very common to have the angel elsewhere/devil at home.
If that is happening I would suggest (and I am sure others might disagree) that you have got yourself (very understandably) into a viscous circle of "she screams, you feed (which is of course lovely)....then she realises that screaming means boob...which results in more screaming".
And that has come to define your relationship more than you are comfortable with. From your post, it seems you are looking at it from the other perspective - ie "what would I do about the screaming if I didn't have the option of bfing her".

I would suggest that you pick, say, four times in the day that you are happy for her to have a feed at - and at those times she is picked up and offered a lovely cuddle and feed - and then at the other times she is given something else to do/eat/drink. Yes, she will scream, but ime, (if you stick to it - and are you sure you are strong and want to do that)you will break the habit in three days. Once you have a "new" pattern established where she doesn't associate you with constant feeding, then I am sure you could have more flexibility to feed whenever you/she fancied. But it seems an awful shame to give up b'fing her, just because this pattern has emerged.

I don't know if this is making any sense, but my friend (who is a lovely child-centred) child pyschologist describes a lot of the problems of early years (early waking, continued night feeding - when Mum not happy to do it, children not going down at night) as "slot machine" problems - ie we respond in a certain way once or twice to a behaviour by, for example, giving a bottle of milk - so the child (very naturally, not because they are horrid manipulative beings) associates that behaviour with getting something nice. And then that behavious gets entrenched.

I do have a tough time with my DD2 perpetually wanting to be carried around. Now of course I am happy to cuddle her and carry her - but just not all the time, I have two other kids to look after. So sometimes I have to let her scream while I get on. 9/10 she then gets distracted and poodles off to do something else. She knows that screaming won't yield results. When we have had doting Granny in the house (who has the time and inclination and of course should) lifts her at the first screech, then I normally have a couple of days when I have to reestablish - sorry but I can't carry you everywhere my darling.

Anyway, ignore me if you think I sound like a cold-hearted person. But I personally think that at this age they are not teeny tiny babies who need to be fed nonstop, so nutrition isn't the issue, cuddles should be given in abundance but if a mum is at the end of her tether with either night wakings or constant feeding then it's in everyone's interest to break the pattern. I probably sound like Supernanny. Lord help me.

Kiwi: I have cut right back on bf and I find ds2 is fine so long as I'm completely consistent. I feed last thing at night. I was feeding in the morning but ds2 was waking earlier and obv confused by my feeding him at 6 or 7 but not 5. No intolerances here though. And ds2 is a far easier baby than ds1 was, I think that's often the case with second children. Don't let it put you off! I do think short breaks aren't worth it I'd your child gets cross at changing routines. Ds1 is terrible if we go away. In fact he's pretty terrible if we do anything out of the ordinary in the week!

Afternoon ladies, blimey what a morning you have all had - very busy

Kiwi, sorry things are tough right now. I have no advice but turnip has a great suggestion there. I hope you get something sorted.

Katie hope you didn't fall asleep.

Aubs sorry you've had a rough morning at work. Tomorrow is a new day though.

There was loads more I wanted to say and I can't remember anything...bah I'm not even pg

Turnip Thank you so much for wise words/ advice. You are very right that it's hard to tell whether she screams because that gives her milk, or she's screaming, SO I give her milk ... It's pretty much her default reaction to anything (upset? Mummy milk! seen an interesting leaf? Mummy milk! Raining? Mummy milk!) and I'm sure you are right that that's because I have offered it/ let her. Why wouldn't she want it all the time if that's what she's used to? I think next weekend, when she's had her nursery days and we have three days together, I'm going to try what you suggest. Although I have my moments, I don't really want to give up BFing. She was so poorly when she was newborn and I always - rightly or wrongly - associate the moment where she finally started to BF (she'd take expressed milk only for a week) with the point at which she suddenly started to improve. So emotionally I'm not sure I am ready to give up.

Oh I think she's an angel at nursery btw. In fact she's always an angel when she meets complete strangers, DH and I never fail to be astonished by her outrageous displays of flirting with strangers in public settings. If there's one thing she doesn't have, it's stranger anxiety. Get her on a train and it's an all out charm-offensive... the girl is destined to be on the X Factor, she's such a performer ... She eats like a horse but is skinny, flirts outrageously, has boundless energy - my god, can you imagine what a hellish teenager she's going to be??

Gosh I popped out with the boys to enjoy the sunshine and come back to find I am being implored to delete the thread. To tell the truth I don't know that I want to. I got a little upset by the whole thing which I know is my issue and in a way it's been a good thing as I've identified something that is a trigger from my childhood for certain emotions. But I kind of feel like I can't talk about it on here now. Anyhoo I'm just being silly but the while thing has ruined my day too, i feel really harrassed and pestered by it, again my problem no needing for apologies etc my emotions are my own. I'm not making any sense I know but I feel I can't explain myself to you all now.

Gosh I'm ranting aren't I.

Turnip it's def an inflamation of the airways and needs listening too. GP visit should do the trick.

Kiwi I know where you coming from DS2 is by no means feeding as much as your DD but, well I understand. Could you maybe have a chat tosomeone at the BfN or la leche league. Or even post under the feeding threads here.

Oops posted before I meant to.

Ski I'll be in touch but also stay on this thread please, we love new people and I think in view of the age of our 08 babies and because we are almost an antenatal thread again it would be brill to have you hear. Maybe I'll make the thread title reflect that. Ok I've gotta get the kids tea but will sort out new thread and delete request when I've got all fed and to bed ok Rubarb. I actually thought maybe we could draw you into our thread and keep you too as we have many others. We could even make you in charge of thread titles. But I see that prob won't happen.

Don't worry, Veg, and don't let it spoil our happy band.

That particular poster seems to have left MN now (which I think is a shame, if anyone gets themselves into that sort of state over nowt much, but I won't say any more as I really do not want to inflame or make things worse) but I think it was more the bother with the Twisluts thread than ours. Anyway, best change the subject!

I'm rushing to get work on my book before I disappear to London Saturday to Tuesday. I shouldn't let myself get so distracted!

Oh, and I say don't delete the thread but will go along with what everyone else says!

I think not being able to take Ibuprofen is one of the annoying things about pregnancy. I have got a right headache and paracetamol is rubbish.

Veggie, I was reading everything that went on this morning and I'm so sorry its spoilt your day. I do 'get' why you got defensive over our group, if I hadn't been at work I probably would have got to involved! TBH I don't see why that particular poster got so upset over it all, its sad that she did but I won't harp on about it its all been said.

BTW I don't feel the thread needs deleting. But if others would rather have a clean slate so to speak then I understand.

I don't think we should delete at this stage myself.

Kiwi your DD sounds like a complete poppet! As I say it seems that it would be such a shame to give up b'fing when neither you nor she are ready. She clearly loves it - a lot which is something very special. My advice was purely from the 3 kids perspective, rather than any direct experience of extended breastfeeding, so Veg's suggestion to contact LL and so on is a great one.

veg will get DD checked out thanks for the advice.

From my point of view I say don't delete the thread - tbh I only suggested it before to keep the peace so to speak. I thought whatever it takes to make the ongoing endless argument go away, which it seems to have done now anyhow.

kiwi that does sound hard, my DS is a total flirt like that too. Bless 'em. Sorry I am not sure what to suggest but I do think Turnip's suggestion of not always giving in is a good one, though it may result in some screaming at first!

veggie sorry you are feeling upset. hopefully that is the last of this storm in a teacup.

Gosh really. Poor thing I kind of did want her to stay. I thought she and Trace would get on. She seemed to give a lot advice on PND and I thought what with Trace being quite good with that and me thinking she could start a group or website about it, I thought maybe this lady could talk with her about it. My own rambling train of thought though. I think I want to meet the twisluts.

I'm cheating and cooking cheesy pasta.

Well with my rambling before I feel I got upset with all this because it reminded me of my mum when I was a teenager and well forever really. She says something that is meant to get a rise then when she is pulled up on it or gets the desired response she goes all funny and puts on the guilts and turns it all around. I know this situation wad really nothing like that but for me it felt it and it brought back really uncomfortable feelings. I've still got quite a knot in my stomach about it.

The other thing it has highlighted for me though is what a lifeline you guys have been this move has been harder than I expected and I've been quite lonely with no real friends here (exc. My lovely MN friend Ollie) and confined to home a lot of the time due to weather and various family illnesses including the dreaded loose poo. but you guys have been my friends here and, well I really can't express what you have been for me.

Also Turnip put it well kiwi. Now I think of it I have 2 daytime designated feeds, both for nap times. I have to say nighttime is a little flexible as he generally sleeps through but for when he's teething or ill (so a lot). I've generally been able to distract him at other times with snacks or milk in beaker, which o might add he doesn't usually drink but it distracts him as he messes with beaker.

veggie I do think the situation was exactly like that. Start a thread saying "ooh i expect to get flamed", be argumentative, get told so, throw toys out of pram, say wasn't meaning to be argumentative oh poor me.

Exactly the same.

but now i am going on about it, and I shouldn't.

Oh Veg sorry you are feeling upset by this whole episode. I don't like conflict either like this - but you seem so self aware as to where it comes from. But hugs to you, enjoy the cheesy pasta and maybe you could do something nice this evening to put this all behind you.

(It just goes to show we need to hunker down and not venture out there to the big bad other threads...but at the same time remain as friendly as we(well you guys I have been awol) have always been to any lovely people - (with or without Dec 08 babies) who would like to join our chat. Hi ski - you are most welcome!

Veggie, I think you have all done SO well with the move to a new country. It was quite abrupt as well. I have struggled with my move to Oxfordshire, a whopping 60 miles from London

Trouble with MN is, I think, that sometimes posters that you don't know can have emotional agendas that are not apparent (I am speaking very generally here) and we all know each other very well so it's a different vibe.

I am not explaining myself very well here but maybe you get my drift. Also, once can get carried away (well I certainly do). The number of times on the wider MN I have just wanted to scream at someone to go and boil their bonce, but it's daft when I don't know them and shouldn't let things affect me.

Anyway, hopefully we can return to our cosy obscurity after our brief flare of notoriety Who'da thought it?

Goodness, sounds like plenty been going on! But there really is no point in adding anything at this point. Just sorry it made you feel bad and stir things up for you veggie. We've all really appreciated your friendship and wisdom on here. But probably there is some backstory for R too.

Kiwi - I think some advice from the more specific threads/organisations is probably the way to go. With DD especially, I was always willing to BF as the answer to every squeak, but she eventually protested that it wasn't what she wanted. I think there is something in the being charming for strangers bit - distraction and entertainment works really well for keeping my DCs happy, but can def pay for it later if we've overdone it - they let their guard down and feel free to be monstrous. Much sympathy on the meltdown thing, it can be incredibly wearing - DS doesn't do it all the time, but he can totally lose it and yell for 20 mins or more when he doesn't get something he wants. I'm sure by the end he has no idea what he was furious about in the first place. Oh, and on the whole developmenet thing, its a bit wrong to think of it as a continuum where they are changing all the time - what really happens is that nothing much seems to be going on for ages and suddenly there is a quantum leap where they have all kinds of new tricks.

All a bit better in our house anyway. The DS sick thing turned out to be a one-off, so probably just a case of him stuffing himself silly and then bouncing around like a lunatic at bedtime (you wouldn't believe it if you saw him though, he really is quite a little monkey).

Thanks ladies I'm running the boys bath now but will run it a little too hot jump in myself then have a little rest in it & then the boys will join me in it once it's cooled down.

Do you know a great thing has come out of thus, I found Skihorse-hooray! & she's up the duff! Ski we are nearly all registered but DH was very inconveniently born in the Phillipines who aren't under the Hague convention so not the usual apostille BC thing. We are still waiting for his BC from over there it has been to the foreign office there and to the Dutch consulate there. It should be on it's way back next week. However they have already sorted his expat tax here and because he was born in a dodgy country the boys get hep B vaccinations.

Cross-posted LadyT - I think we were trying to say more or less the same thing, but you did it much better. I find it interesting to read the wider mumsnet, but don't post much as unless its very factual its sooo easy to find yourself at cross-purposes with someone, or just missing the huge iceberg of an agenda (or just history)everyone has to some extent

Poonami gate - wow that went a bit ott tbh!
I must have missed a chapter but confused as to why they have requested Veggie to authorise deleting the thread? I had my two posts deleted already and said my apologies to R etc. I doubt R has left - but rather name changed as we often do.
Veggie hope you are feeling better and thanks to all of you for your support over on the dreaded thread. I never thoguht it would turn into that by posting that link! Again - why is Veggie dragged in to sort out thread deletion? I don't think it really needs to come to that, but same as Lady - I will go along with whatever.

Forgot everything else I was going to say
must get dinner finished for now.... back later

Just caught up on train home. Am totally lost. Was the argument going on on another thread as well? Why do we think R has left MN (after 9 years as a prolific poster surely our tiny spat can't be what drove her away?). Anyway I am sorry it upset you so Veg, it upset me too partly because I let the bad mood it created affect my work demeanor hence handling our tricky finance director badly. I learnt a lesson about apologising too. In both cases I felt more sinned against than sinning but was still concerned I had upset people with an unwise choice of words so in both cases I offered a full apology. Most unlike me, I am known to defend my corner no matter what. Anyway it felt so good to apologise and draw a line and so I genuinely learnt something from this.

Veg - I don't think we need to delete. We would lose important posts like Kiwi's asking for and receiving advice. Plus Rubena and I had the offending posts deleted. But do what you feel needs to be done.

Kiwi - I think you got some great advice from Turnip and the others. I do feel for you as although DD2 does not scream all the time she is more difficult than DD1 and when she has a bad day my nerves are left in tatters. Turnip's advice about patterns that reinforce behaviour is spot on in my experience. As they get older it's clearer to see and I now make a huge effort to only reinforce DD1's good behaviour and not take the easy route of giving in when she cries, whines etc. Parenting really does get easier as they age and are easier to read. I promise it does.