I can't tell you how much I hope the Conservatives win the election.

[AntoinetteOuradi]

Just had to get that off my chest.

Please come and join me if you feel the same, and then I can stop annoying myself (and others) by hijacking the anti-Tory threads.

ahundredtimes I'm not really sure what your point is and why you're so against what you perceive to be a "Tory mindset".

You freely admit that there are wasters and achievers at all levels of society - yet just a paragraph previously you say it's not the case?

No I was disagreeing with Eve's point that everyone has the same opportunity.

That seems manifestly not true to me

Problem is, skihorse, that the Tories are based on greed and selfishness, where as in other political parties* it is more a by-product.

*don't count BNP, UKIP as real political parties obviously.

If the Tories get in, the private sector will suffer. We forget how much everyone needs the public sector.

The private sector needs roads, lighting rubbish collection, and loads of hidden infrastructure provided by the public sector, as well as schools, hospitals and the obvious.

After cuts in public expenditure, there'll be a lag, then the private sector will feel it too.

It's totally COUNTER INTUITIVE.

So we must not have cuts in the public sector, but the opposite: I wish the Tories could understand this basic financial fact:
You can only get money back when you've put enough in, and we're at the stage of still putting in and building up.

For the sake of enlightened self-interest...even...

Don't ruin the progress by voting Tory.

Thanks Aeldermum for my say! S.

antoinette - surely by the same token then "Labour" are based upon laziness and entitlement?

Sansu - quite right, we need a shitload of 5-a-day coordinators to keep the private sector in juice!

Sorry antoinette - I didn't read your post properly. I should go and have a quiet lie down - I'm not reading anyone's posts properly now.

...so where does not everyone have the same opportunity??

and yes my dad worked 3 jobs.. what should he have done ...sat on his backside and relied on benefits.. as it wasn't worth his while to go to work.

I agree with antoinettechigur

Tax the very rich in the meantime, and stop off-shore tax evasion, to support the public sector.

Eve your Dad shouldn't have had to work three jobs. One will do for most people. But conservative fiscal policies had caused economic difficulties far in excess of what we are seeing now.

Have to laugh at the idea that everyone has the same opportunities. Why so many Etoniains in the Tory top level then? Coincidence?

People born into depravation lack social mobility and opportunities. I don't feel comfortable with any party that doesn't aspire to level the playing field. A teenager who comes from a workless household with no "contacts" will find it almost impossible to maximise their abilities, a rich, well-supported one may well progress beyond their abilities.

As an illustration, I come from a middle-class but not well off background. I was well-supported in my state education and now have a good job. To get to the top I need a PhD. Not having someone on hand to fund my lifestyle, and not being able to manage on a scholarship, this door is closed to me. It doesn't matter that I am very academically able. I'm not bitter about it, there are lots of people far, far, far worse off than me and I'm happy as I am, but it does show that opportunities are not equal.

Oh if only the Labour party only recruited GCSE failure students from bad comps. If only it were true that only trustafarians held PhDs.

My uncle went to Kings and did a PhD - I don't remember holidaying at my grandparents chateau or summers in Monte Carlo but it must've been.

FFS, I'm currently planning on full-time, non-funded education - I'm just going to have to suck up that bank loan/career development loan and thank my lucky stars that one day I'll be able to pay it off.

Boo fucking hoo - it should be for free should it? I'll thcweam and thcweam until I'm thick?

I know plenty of "academically able" people who were able to get funds for their PhDs. Granted - they weren't using it to fund a Boden-lifestyle - perhaps that is your problem?

I agree with antoinettechigur again.

I want to live in a MERITOCRACY, where there is an equal opportunity for all children to succeed, and those in power are there because they are best able, not there by birth-right or who they know.

Good-luck antoinettechigur. Don't completely give up hope: we need people like you. Keep on at it when you can, and I hope you get your PhD, and get to the top in your field.

I also like your selflessness

Thanks for the personal attacks Ski.

I was just illustrating, in response to Eve, that not everyone has the same opportunity. As I made clear, I am well aware that I am in a fortunate situation. I did not argue that all higher education should be free, I just showed that ability is not the only thing that dictates achievement. I know that plenty of people live on £10,000 a year (and much less) like the scholarship I have been offered. Presumably someone is funding your living expenses during your planned venture into education?

Maybe you didn't understand what I was saying. There is a lack of social equality and mobility across society. It is not just about who political parties employ. Mentioing Old Etonians and my situation (and genuinely deprived peoples' situations) was an attempt not to have to drone on (like this).

Oh and I fucking hate Boden.

Thanks Sansu.

By the time we can affors for me to do a PhD I think I'll have lost the will. But it's a choice to an extent - and I'm glad that I am anywhere near having one. Some kids can't even afford to stay at school. Never mind university or college.

That was a non-sarky thanks to you, btw, Sansu

It was not a personal attack - I'm just wondering why you need/require a handout else you're going to whinge about lack of opportunity - whilst I'm going to (and have already said!) go along to the bank cap-in-hand and live on baked beans and get on with it?

Skihorse - I'm not asking for handout. I didn't say that I thoght people shpould be paid £40,000 pa to do a PhD. I am aware that there is a degree of choice here. I chose not to be in severe debt and to have a decent family life. Plenty of able people don't even get to make a choice at that level.

Please try to understand that this is not about me, or you. I was simply illustrating that the Conservative idea of everyone having the same opportunities, of making their own luck is a fallacy. Maybe I could have chosen a better example, but I hoped that this was easier to relate to than the real problem in our society. That is soul-destroying, grinding poverty.

Good luck with your studies and bean-eating.

It's not true thate veryone ahd the same opportunities; my school wrote me off becuase I had a terrible homelife and I didn't even relaise you could get Uni funding until I was working; luckily I had the chance to go backl and prove I was able (hard to explain how big a deal that was psychologically) and hope tat ic an use my degree to do good.

The school my kids go to however pretty much assumes university as part of the normal schooling experience- now, ds3 won't go (Autsim) and I am nto certain the otehrs are Uni material (more apprenticehip which is fine by me) but they have the equal chance.

It may be simply becuase my home county ahs no University of course, whereas we live under a mile from one now.

Equality also comes from parental attitude- I seriosuly doubt some of the alcohol dependent parents I ahve worked with in the apst inspire their children to achieve in any real way, and education is a big aprt of that.

Ski is it a professional course you're doing then? Good luck with it.

And it is very annoying to have statements like "you're going to whinge about a lack of opportunity" and "Boo fucking hoo" into a political discussion. But I suspect you know that.

(oh before anyone comes on and posts you dont deserve a degree with your typing like usual I have eyesight probs and glasses being amde atm)

SanctiMoany sums it up perfectly.

antoinette I'm afraid your points just don't make logical sense. By the same token I expect you to start complaining any moment now because you don't buy your clothes in Milan and you've not got a Kensington postcode. Life isn't fair - I know in my heart that my real birth mother looked like Grace Kelly and I should've been surrounded by ponies and boys who drove Mercedes...

Sancti Yes, it will be a professional course. I fucked up school terribly horribly due to an abusive home life. But that didn't take away my brains - it didn't take away my ability to read and learn. So in that respect, life isn't fair - it's not fair (in some people's eyes) I got the brains to figure it all out in the end.

Similar sort of childhood to mine then Ski (real,aprents but Dad was a drunk and both aprents a bit handy with their fists- though credit to them the drinking stopped eyars ago and they turned it aorund)

Good luck to you; an abusive childhood is a real handicap but doesn't have to ruin everything. My life isn't perfect- I didn;t ask for two of my chidlren to be disabled after all- but it's aa damn sight better than I thought it would be and I earned that all- right down to the decent DH and determination to do better for mine. We've ahd our sahre of bad luck but what I hope teh boys are seeing is that we haven't once given up or blamed anyone else and we are trying our hardest to dig ur way out. that's not a bad lesson to learn.

Glad we agree on something at last Ski.

Life isn't fair. That's my point. It is not about how it affects us involved in the discussion.

Conservative philosphy is built on the laughable premise that life is fair.

All I can add at this point is: Kaylasmum, you say "I'm not usually particularly interested in politics at all". OMG, you are going to vote (Labour, but in a way that's irrelevant), and you're not interested in politics unless someone tells you you might lose benefits?

I think there should be some sort of test that decides whether people be allowed to vote or not.