Depressed lefties sign in here...

[WilfSell]

...on the grounds that if we assume there will be a Tory govt, then the crowing triumphalism of all the Chinless Wonders and Thrusting Monetarists and Nasty Racists who'll poke in here to crow and gloat, will somehow force a cosmic rift in the time-space continuum. And it will be like 1992 all over again but the other way round.

I fear the best we can hope for is a hung parliament.

I've suggested hemlock for the Election Night supper thread...

We might also look to the bedrock for the reasons why child poverty exists in the UK. Now, let's think....oh yeah, it'd be something perhaps to do with the fact that the majority of those children are the descendants of the people who used to have jobs in the industries Thatcher single-handedly destroyed, plunging working class families into relying on state handouts. For the past 3 generations in some cases.

(I know the industries were in decline anyway, but what she did was the Texan Death Row approach rather than a dignified and managed end)

I'm also not anti anything. I don't believe in anti-politics. Too negative man.

But people who support Labour are nicer people.

Going to go and youtube Geoffrey Howe now. (and maybe Maggie's tears)

That made me smile youngvisitor. DP and I were having a similar discussion yesterday.

I was born with a placard in my hand.

Also the insults are perhaps related to the fact that is seems the majpority of the front bench have absolutely no idea what the everyday life and struggles for normal working people is.

OK, so they are priveliged and went to public school. That was not their choice or fault. However DC when he was an undergraduate made the conscious choice to join the Bullingdon Club and all the ghastliness of what that actually says about his psyche. And you can't necessary explain that away by saying he was young. My character was fully formed at that age, and something like that to most decent people seems a heinous thing to be associated with.

I do not want people like that to make far reaching decisions for my family, or for others.

Well said GetOrf.

Off to the park but hope there will be an election night thread for us. I feel happier having read this.

ZD, well all I can say to that is, is the gap between rich and poor in this country not wider than ever in recent history? Exactly how many years were you going to give Labour to sort it? There seems to be a huge disconnection between Labour ideology and Labour's achievements over the last 13 years.

"I was born with a placard in my hand."
Ouch - your poor mum!

I am shamelessly ignoring the serious debate here in case you hadn't noticed. We have the rest of MN to justify our politics - I think Wilf is allowed one thread where the Red Flag is still flying (albeit a little faded) and Billy Bragg tapes are playing in the back room.

[passes the beer and sandwiches]

Sorry everyone I can actually spell, not tthat you would think that from my garbled posts.

Echo what WilfSell said about child poverty. Imagine how big the gap between rich and poor would have been if the tories had been in power for the last 13 years. It doesn't bear thinking about.

[applauds getorf]

Yes, the Tories-are-no-longer-the-party-of-wealth-and-privilege line would fly better without the evidence of the Tory front bench.

Lol at Billy Bragg tapes.

Yes, this thread is like a slightly battered sixth form common room from the early 90s)

I used to actually be a Conservative, well not a fully paid up member but I was certainly right in my leanings (as some of you may remember). Largely because my partner made a very good case for them, he is an activist and does a lot of work within the Conservative party.

However, I started my degree in politics in September and once I started to actually learn about politics in depth I realised there is no way that I could be a Conservative. My parents, specifically my Dad, are big socialists so it's not a real surprise. I just feel I have come home after a brief detour to the dark side

Molesworth, that's silly. You're condemning the tories for something that they might have done if things had been different over the last 13 years. Unless you have psychic powers with a sort of if/then/else function, you can't possibly know what it would have been like. Can't help thinking that's a bit unreasonable.

And anyway, why are you lot so gloomy, Labour haven't lost yet. Plenty of time to be gloomy IF it actually happens.

There is nothing wrong with being priveleged and wealthy - I am sure lots of us on this thread fall into that category, myself included.

Being priveleged and wealthy and your main focus being on creating more wealth and success for people like you without a thought to people who haven't been so fortunate is the problem. It's not the background of these politicians that is the problem, it's the politics and where they want to take the country.

ewe what was it that changed your mind?

Whoever gets into government will be HATED for a generation. So if you love Labour you need to let the Tories in

That's funny YV - my mother said exactly the same to me and I have said the same recently to ds2.

DS2 (10) incidentally is standing as the LD candidate in the school general election. He said he thought about taking in his guitar and maybe playing a song rather than speaking. This conforms beautifully to all stereotypes, I'd like to point out.

TiggyR, what exactly have the Tories said that has suggested to you that they will do anything to narrow the gap? Am keen to know - might even switch my vote. Was it their policy on Inheritance Tax that convinced you?

I fear that the Greek problem is going to cause LOTS of problems soon. Just hope we don't end up with a summer of strikes in all of the Euro zone.
Where can we go on holiday. So wanted to go to Greece this year....can't now

It's not silly at all. I'm going on the tories' track record, a track record I know something about having grown up in the Thatcher years as the child of a single parent. I'm going on the tories' policies which always favour the best off in our society at the expense of the poor. And if Cameron wins on Thursday, you'll soon see what I mean.

And, once again, let's just think a bit harder about what that statement 'gap between rich and poor wider' actually means...

...It is 'true' in one sense, but why? The main reason is because those at the upper end of the scale have got richer. There are more enclaves of wealth and poverty than ever so working, wealthy households in the South East are doing better. And Northern/Western urban poor enclaves are doing worse on a relative measure of poverty but still better than an 'absolute' measure of 'core poverty'.

Even though a median measure of poverty irons out some of the inequities of a scale unbalanced by high earners, it doesn't do it completely. And the share of wealth owned by the richest 1% of the population increased dramatically under the Tories, the legacy of which stayed with us after Blair was elected.

Quite why Tory voters object to this is a mystery since it has always been a core ideology that wealth pulls everyone else along with you. Yet for me the true measure of value is where you stand on this issue - I simply don't agree that it is acceptable to allow the rich to be as rich as they like and everyone else suffers. Tory voters should not delude themselves about compassionate conservatism: nonsense. Those who complain about inheritance tax have no idea how other people live: no clue that the vast majority of older people in the UK have few assets to leave to their children, no clue that owning a house is still a pipe dream for many parents of young children, no clue that wealth just does not trickle down to the poorest, however comfortable that idea makes them feel...

I just know whoever I vote for I'm going to feel lied to and disillusioned by, in around 6 months' time....at least the Labour party in the 80s had good music

Thatcher's gone. She's been gone for 20 years. Just like Enoch Powell and Harold Wilson and dozens before them have gone. Are you saying an entire section of society can't have changed in a generation?

We'll have to agree to differ because I can't condemn millions of people because of something that happened two decades ago.

Ellie - I think once you've hit your 40s you kind of figure that nobody is going to do it perfectly. So then you have to go with who is going to do their best at getting it as largely right as possible, and not expect miracles.

On that note, I think I'd better leave the 90s common room!

KJ - "If you don't know history, it is as if you were born yesterday."

Kathyjelly - what is it about Cameron's polices that you believe are so different from Thatcher's?