Greens adopt policy treating Zionism as racism (part 2)

[Twiglets1]

Follow on from previous thread

www.mumsnet.com/talk/politics/5585462-greens-adopt-policy-treating-zionism-as-racism?page=40&reply=155235707

This is one of the big drivers of antisemitism on the left. They love minority groups when they can play the patronising saviour. They don't know how to respond when that minority group is successful in their own right. Corbyn made a statement to that effect - that his party was committed to supporting minority groups, but that the Jewish community is successful and affluent so don't make the cut.

Patronising saviour is right.

Expecting nothing of Palestinians in terms of behaviour but everything from Israel.

Not even Palestinian terrorists attract much condemnation from the West. Ah but Hamas are “freedom fighters” or shouldn’t be held accountable for 7/10/23 because “the conflict didn’t start then”.

You're absolutely right, they're buying into the racist trope that Jewish people are white, wealthy and middle class, so not deserving of support.

Apart from the fact that wanting to destroy Israel is completely and rabidly antisemitic, I still dont understand how these people think Palestine and Gaza is something a UK party should make their main policy/ point of interest/ only thing they even talk about. I know supporters will say UK is somehow enabling Israel but really, are there no other problems we should tackle first? Like something a bit closer to home? Its insane. Just call yourself "Antisemitic Pro-Islamist Group" and get out of UK politics, you fucking loons.

Very true! It's like the Highgate Synagogue letter said, it's obsessive.

A lot of Palestinian supporters close their eyes to the fact that Palestinians hold some very questionable views and that their (Hamas-led) media lies almost constantly while suppressing any criticism and dissent.

I do feel very sorry for Palestinians by having a double whammy of Hamas and Israel to deal with - however, no one really talks about Palestinian ideology and how their society works. I strongly suspect that free Palestine would be an extremist Islamic country, not the pink pony land of democracy Greens say it would turn into.

But to be honest, I suspect they all know perfectly well what Palestine is about. They just dont care as their main goal is destruction of Israel, not anything else.

I’ve said this to people a lot. That if all Israelis in Israel oblige them by marching into the sea most people here wouldn’t like the result. The entire region will be run by the Taliban and Isis and Hamas and the rest of the terrorists, women and Christians and gay people and whoever else will suffer even more, and the entire mess of them (and yes, I mean those in power. I understand there are plenty living in all those countries who do want to live in peace but they aren’t strong enough - can see that clearly in Afghanistan!) will have all their energies fixated on the western world - Jews and non Jews alike. They wouldn’t stop fighting, focus on educating their women and holding lovely democratic elections. They’d just turn their gaze back to Bondi and Manchester and Pittsburgh - and eventually the rest of the world too. They aren’t even secretive about it - it’s in their charter and they keep showing the world exactly who they are.

Agree. There is a reason Egypt also has a massive wall on their border, and neighbouring Muslim countries may talk loudly but don't want them. We know what all the Western Lefties will say when this inevitably happens. They have said it after all the Leftists were murdered in Iran and after Afghanistan turned into a complete shit hole. The poor Hamas/Taliban /Ayatollahs couldn't help themselves. They can't possibly be expected to have some agency and make lives better for their own people. It's all a reaction to something some Americans/ British did 40/50/70 years ago. A people who 1000 years ago were one of the most advanced civilisations in the world have no agency at all and can't help themselves, poor lambs. They might as well add some eugenics in for good measure. They can't admit that their own sheep like mentality from often a place of comfort and privilege higher than even many people in the UK has been utterly deluded.

True. The Palestinians are collateral damage for them.
It's tragic.

This 100%.

There was a little bit of interest at the start of the Russian invasion of Ukraine, but because the Ukraine is a predominantly white European nation, it doesn’t seem to capture the support of the left. Like others too, I noticed on the anniversary of 7/10, the BBC focused on the resultant response by Israel on Gaza and proceeded to show images of damage and rubble and how tough it is for Gazans, rather than cover the brutality of the massacre and loss of Jewish life at a music festival on one particular day.

This white saviourism is also one of the reasons I can’t bear Comic Relief either - the push that brown people are always the victims of white people; that even if brown people commit atrocities, it’s a result of a historic situation created by white people, even over 150 years previously. That brown people can never be held accountable for their own situations or actions.

Ironically, this attitude is actually incredibly patronising and works on the assumption that brown people do not have the capacity to sort their own issues out without white intervention and denies them agency. But it certainly makes a lot of white peopke feel really good about themselves.

The plight of Ukraine doesn't have the support of the hard left because they agree with Russia.

Did you not see all the Stop the War types blaming NATO for the invasion? Poor Russia had no alternative than to invade Ukraine because NATO was 'poking the bear'.

The expansion of NATO in response to the invasion of Ukraine is intolerable and must be stopped because otherwise Russia will have to attack NATO.

Exactly. It’s not as though we have got everything completely right and ticking along nicely in our own back yard, so why the hell are some of our politicians making Gaza and the situation in the Middle East part of their manifesto.

Isn't peace keeping and reconciliation the role of the UN and world leaders, not your average MP representing local constituencies?

If anyone seriously were trying to help Palestinians they would be campaigning to remove Hamas, first and foremost. Help dissent, support opposition, encourage change of government and elections. Instead everyone pretends Gaza is not governed (and totally controlled) by an extreme antisemitic Isalmist death cult.

Absolutely, and get rights for women and gays.

Hamas is an abstract concept, a cloud which conducted the October 7th attacks and then dissipated into the wind. The government, which bears the name Hamas are not the same murderers who conducted the attacks and therefore their pronouncements about what Israel are up to can be trusted and broadcast as fact not terrorist propaganda.

Until the BBC broadcast a documentary about Gaza and it turns out the narrator is the son of a Hamas official, at which point it is said to be impossible to find anyone not linked to Hamas. They are so woven into the fabric of Palestinian society that if you want to make a documentary, they will obviously be involved in some way.

Until death tolls are released and then every single Palestinian killed is a civilian.

But, until the Gazan government - whatever umbrella name they choose to operate under - distance themselves from the 7/10 massacre and condemn the actions of a few “rogue” operators who committed the atrocity, the Hamas association will always tarnish and call into question any facts and figures they supply.

I don't think the facts and figures are tarnished or questioned by a lot of people. The 'Hamas run Health ministry' figures are reported as factual. Not 'these figures are reported by the Hamas-run Health Ministry therefore should be taken with a large pinch of salt'.

And then they are repeated as fact without the 'Hamas-run' bit being mentioned.

Indeed.

Totally this.

The figures supplied are quoted and repeated as gospel, without any qualification by media outlets at all, and the pro Pallys lap them up. I appreciate “the fog of war” and “the first casualty of war is truth” so there is no doubt propaganda from both sides, but there seems to be a blind acceptance that those supplied by Gaza are unquestionable and Isreal must be lying.

Yes I agree.

That's a good letter from Highgate synagogue. United Synagogues, of which Highgate is a member, are mainstream Orthodox. So the sentiments expressed in that letter will be shared by many Jews.

I find it absolutely appalling that synagogues need professional security with stab vests. That wasn't the case in the 1980s. A friend of mine tried telling me that mosques need security too. She has no idea...

It's not racism but id argue that Zionism is fundamentally wrong. The idea that a religious group is somehow entitled to statehood based on biblical doctrine.

I don't believe religious beliefs play a part in statehood and the two things should be completely separate. Religion is a private matter and should be private...state is the rules of the state and should be free from religious interaction and interference.

Palestine is geography and the occupants are human beings and the religious beliefs are irrelevant. They should be able to mix without fear of discrimination or violence.

I don't buy into make believe or having an imaginary friend and my god is better than your god. I'm catholic on paper but it's more cultural than anything else...I don't believe in heaven and hell but the mould it's sets is basic right and wrong.

People are free will living things are you are entitled to believe in what ever you want but that doesn't give you the right to land.

Which is a fair enough opinion, but when it is Israel that needs to be eradicated and not other religious states like, say, Pakistan which was specifically created around the same time as Israel, but as a homeland for Muslims, with a huge amount of upheaval of people and up to two million deaths, one wonders why the fixation with Israel and how it was created?

What I find most disturbing about these governments who claim some kind of moral right based on religion. It's all lies designed to support a different narrative.

Trump waging war on foreign powers while surrounded by religious freaks giving a blessing. Read the Bible.... killing is wrong that's not a verse that says it's right.... pretty sure every religion says the same....but look around and all these governments are killing people.

If you did believe in heaven and hell then I'm afraid this is the devil's work.

Even Christianity has the concept of a Just War.