Should non-citizens pay the same tax if excluded from benefits?

[InWithPeaceOutWithStress]

Reform’s latest policy proposals include cutting all benefits for foreign nationals including EU nationals with leave to remain.

My partner is an EU citizen with indefinite leave to remain. He’s never claimed any benefits but you never know what’s round the corner.

It seems unfair to expect him to continue paying the same rate of national insurance and income tax if he isn’t entitled to the same benefits I’d be entitled to. Have Reform thought that through?

If our household isn’t entitled to the same safety net, we shouldn’t have to pay the same rates of national insurance and income tax.

This is just rubbish. I know people with 3 citizenships. It’s just a piece of paper. It doesn’t tell you anything about a person’s commitment to the country. Don’t talk to me about sense of entitlement. You do sound like a reform voter…

Agreed and as someone who has gone through becoming a British citizen there were people who cried out of happiness at the ceremony and a lot who were very 'meh' it's just a piece of paper.

You are saying citizenship is like marriage - sure you may go into it for the long haul but there is always divorce if it doesn't work out.

I don't feel a lifelong commitment and I certainly don't feel exclusively British. Having paid higher rate of tax for the best part of 20+ years I don't begrudge contributing as I live here. But until I became a citizen I couldn't claim anything - except interestingly child benefit. I didn't claim it - it was given to me as part of that Gordon Brown child bond thing.....saved the money for my kid.

@Onmyhighhorse2

It’s your aggressive tone that I’m responding to, it’s not a nice tone at all. I disagree that my posts don’t make sense, and there isn’t anything to be gained by being rude. But maybe the thread has wound you up and that is what is triggering the harsh tone.

My reasoning is that the benefits bill is wholly unsustainable and that’s not controversial. Many countries (including my birth country) limit benefits to citizens. This seems a very straightforward way to reduce the bill. It won’t solve all the problems but it would be a start. It’s nothing about those with ILR being less worthy, less welcome or less important, but just a pragmatic way to reduce costs to more sustainable levels.

As a noncitizen, I don’t get to vote😚

You’re really not, me and my husband gained british citizenship, we no longer live in the UK.

I got ILR in 2002 without access to public funds. The only thing I could use was the NHS. I paid the same tax and NI as UK citizens for years until I got citizenship.

Reform's policy is fine.

I completely respect that too

phew 😚

You might be surprised, but there we are then

Not even in the local elections?

You can become a Reform member as a non citizen

Nope. I think EU citizens have different rights, but I am neither an eu nor uk citizen.

You think EU citizens on ILR is the reason for the big benefit bill?
My posts are not aggressive in tone. They are however frustrated. Your posts are purely full of emotions which you convert to good ideas in your head. It’s based on nothing real.

Pot meet kettle

@Onmyhighhorse2

No, I don’t think EU citizens on ILR is the cause for the big benefit bill. There are many causes, just like it will take many measures to reduce the bill. This proposal would contribute towards reducing the bill, but a lot more will need to be done.

I also disagree that my posts are simply about emotions. I don’t feel emotional about the proposal to limit benefits to citizens. I do have a positive personal perspective on citizenship which is a different issue. I think your posts are coming across as more emotional, negatively so, and you are starting to lash out on this thread.

I have spoken positively about my lived experience. That doesn’t make me dim (which is what you are implying) nor does it mean that I am simply converting emotions into ‘good ideas in my head’ (bit of an odd criticism or assumption there).

There’s a lot of benefits I don’t qualify for. Earn too much for child benefit and funded childcare and if I became unemployed I have too much in savings to qualify for out of work benefits.

Should I pay less tax because of this? Clearly not, I pay more.

Reform are utter bastards but this is one of their least controversial proposals I think and as PP have said upthread quite commonplace in other countries.

The highest proportion of the big benefit bill is pensions.

Reform isn't announcing policies to reduce that, instead they are going after foreigners and disabled people.

No but you are assuming your own good experience with citizenship must therefore apply to everyone. You cannot understand why someone might not want to be a British citizen to the extent that you wish rights removed from us. You don’t actually know of this will contribute to a reduction of the benefit bill, do you?
You assume it will and you are riding the reform populist wave. Afterall, it is something a little bit suspicious about people who don’t wish to get the grand British citizenship. They cannot be fully committed to this country, whatever that even means.

Well presumably they also want to throw people out once they are not working anymore regardless of decades of contribution.

It's all just fantasy.

Might stop people asking about the £5m for a bit.

I expect your partner benefits from the health service, road, bridge and power infrastructure, any future children of your will enjoy taxpayer-funded education and your partner will be able to claim part of his pension if he has made sufficient NI contributions.

Tax is not all about benefits and the majority of benefits claimants won’t have paid much.

With your argument noone who owns property and has savings would pay tax because they wouldn’t qualify for benefits either. Then who would fund the benefits claimants?

It makes logical sense not to provide benefits and housing to non-nationals. I’d have liked to have seen my chances of getting housing/benefits when I lived in Germany, despite what I had paid into their system.

@Onmyhighhorse2

You have hit on something interesting there because I do take the view that it is best to become a citizen if you plan to live somewhere forever. This is also a common view in my home country where becoming a citizen is considered to be a proud moment. Do you take the view that it is better not to become a citizen in the country where you plan to stay? What is your reasoning for this view?

The rest of your post is goady (riding the Reform populist wave when I have already said I don’t support Reform) and I don’t feel it is helpful to engage with those goady parts.

Are you a UK citizen? If you are, your posts makes no sense.

This - I really resent paying UC to people because their wages are accepted by the government as not being enough, thereby allowing KFC to make huge profits because we top up their employees’ wages!

🤣 which the posterust know.

I don’t take the same view because I am already a citizen of my home country. A citizenship for me in the Uk would just be a piece of paper/ practicality. I have lived here quite happily for over 30 years so I don’t see why anything would change.As for being goady? I am genuinly worried about reform’s proposal. I think they are madmen who will quite happily throw sick, disabled and old people out of the country when they are not “contributing” anymore. They are also not addressing the real issue around benefit claims. Do they have a proposal on employers paying decent living wages to people for example? I only ever heard them go on about immigrants. You say you are not a reform voter and that might be true. You are agreeing with their policies though so not sure what the difference is there.