Should non-citizens pay the same tax if excluded from benefits?

[InWithPeaceOutWithStress]

Reform’s latest policy proposals include cutting all benefits for foreign nationals including EU nationals with leave to remain.

My partner is an EU citizen with indefinite leave to remain. He’s never claimed any benefits but you never know what’s round the corner.

It seems unfair to expect him to continue paying the same rate of national insurance and income tax if he isn’t entitled to the same benefits I’d be entitled to. Have Reform thought that through?

If our household isn’t entitled to the same safety net, we shouldn’t have to pay the same rates of national insurance and income tax.

"Japan requires everyone to pay into their pension scheme, if you pay in for 2 years you can reclaim payments for up to 5 years if you leave but you have to pay in for 10 to get anything paid as a pension later"

[I think the minimum is 6 months rather than two years]

It's just the same as that in the UK (which is the point that you were making). Since 2014 you need at least ten years of NI contributions (or credits) in order to claim any UK state pension at all.

You need 35 years of NI contributions to get a full pension.

However, in one sense it is rather harsher. If non-resident workers in the UK leave then they cannot reclaim any refund at all.

To be fair, that should be the law for all citizens (barring disability/caring responsibilities, etc.) including UK ones.

There are significantly more EU citizens in the UK than UK citizens living in EU countries.

And residents have a history of their family paying tax, building up intrastructure etc. to enable their offspring to benefit.
Fair enough that new comers pay tax but don't qualify for all benefits immediately.

The uk does have contributions based benefits.

there’s a Jobseeker’s Allowance you can only get if you’ve made enough contributions in the last two years.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/new-style-jobseekers-allowance

Not in most EU countries (post Brexit yes) but those there before have entitlement to the same rights as a citizen

I have looked at moving to France. I already have a house there mortgage free which I have owned for over 10 years, which I pay taxes on, have hired local people to do maintenance work on and I speak fluent French. I can't relocate to France despite having a good passive income from private sources from UK of about £100k a year. If I wanted to relocate to France I wouldn't be eligible for a French pension upon retirement and I'd have to claim my UK pension. These are the rules in place in other countries.

So this would make it worthwhile to implement.

Policies aside the idea that people who pay in should do it to a lower amount wouldn’t really work as many high tax payers don’t claim benefits either.

Maddy we are now living in the post Brexit world. In the here and now EU countries along with other countries require a person to prove they can pay their own way including many insisting upon private medical insurance and certainly no rights to claiming benefits.

I think Reform have come out with a bold proposal but everyone knows there are negotiations to be had with EU if Reform form next government. I do think this country needs a radical change in the amount of money the government spends on welfare of all forms from triple lock on pension, payments to non UK citizens and I would say try to half PIP and DLA payments instead offer counselling appointments for those with anxiety and depression and some type of organisation help for those with ADHD. Youth unemployment is ridiculously high. The government needs to pay employers to take on young people to give them experience because many go to job interviews but are told sorry but we have taken on someone with more experience. It's a catch 22 because without a job it's hard to get experience. People often made fun of Work Experience schemes but a lot of young people were taken on after their initial 6 months on the scheme.

OP, you are making the mistake of thinking that Reform politicians and voters want fairness. They don't actually care about fairness at all.

Op if something like this did happen would he be inclined to take citizenship?

The problem is often before they have indefinite leave to remain they work full time then once they have ILTR they start claiming benefits, often after deciding to have DC.

I agree benefits should never be paid for DC not even living in the UK. It's madness and the parents should claim child benefit in the country the DC live if they are eligible.

Have you lived and worked in France and paid income tax? I have paid income tax my whole adult life in the Uk (as an EU citizen)so I am and should be entitled to Uk pension. I also cannot claim pension in France because I have never paid into their system.

Source? This sounds straight out of Reform manifesto

Those “theys” you have stuck in there are covering a very wide range of people, their origins, their skills, their intentions, their contributions to society and their immigration status!

It is a tactic Reform often use too, make sweeping statements that at first glance sound impressive but when you look at them are meaningless, inaccurate and designed to dog whistle. They is a very handy word for racists when talking about immigration. Saves having to think.

Reform wouldn’t be able to do this to EU nationals as it would breach the Withdrawal Agreement.

However National Insurance is not a personal insurance policy or a ring-fenced welfare premium. It largely goes to public financing.

Its just the same as a wealthy person who cannot claim Universal Credit doesn’t receive a tax reduction; someone without children still contributes towards schools and Child Benefit.

I totally agree with you, if you are contributing then I see no reason why anyone should be excluded from our welfare system.

Welfare is a right gained from contribution, it's not charity and never has been. Reform are trying to convince the electorate that those on welfare are somehow lesser people and should work for there benefits. Same old divide and conquer techniques of the extreme right and why British people should reject any idea of this sort of reform. You are completely right that you never know what is around the corner and I'm sure there are people reading this who have been affected by cancer and know the impact it has on family finances. Illness, tragic events the welfare state must be there for people when it's needed.

As for the argument of tax reductions then that would only lead to abuse. I'm actually a foreign national on paper, although I've live here since I was ten. I've never been interested in claiming full citizen ship so I would be very much in the same position. But pushed id simply leave as I still own the family home abroad.

I actually know many EU citizens with right to remain in the UK. At first they both work full time. After several years they have a DC and one stays home to look after it and they start claiming UC top ups. I rent a few houses to people who have done this so I know it happens. They ask me to put in writing for DWP how much rent they pay so they can claim housing benefit and a UC top up. They have rental agreements so I never know why they don't just use those.

So in effect your income is funded by benefits, you just have a middle man.

One parent (often a mother) often gives up work for a few years to raise a young family.

I'm surprised you think this is an EU thing. I know quite a few British people doing this.

Actually I get annoyed because I don't rent to people on benefits. I generally only rent to couples who both work and can comforably afford the rent. The problem is after a few years if a tenant who pays rent on time and is a good tenant gives up their job and starts claiming housing benefit there is not much I can do. I don't like it because the benefits bill is too high. I don't make the housing benefit rules. They would not get entire rent paid but they'd get a contribution towards it. I'm really hoping they go back to work once DC is 3.