Should non-citizens pay the same tax if excluded from benefits?

[InWithPeaceOutWithStress]

Reform’s latest policy proposals include cutting all benefits for foreign nationals including EU nationals with leave to remain.

My partner is an EU citizen with indefinite leave to remain. He’s never claimed any benefits but you never know what’s round the corner.

It seems unfair to expect him to continue paying the same rate of national insurance and income tax if he isn’t entitled to the same benefits I’d be entitled to. Have Reform thought that through?

If our household isn’t entitled to the same safety net, we shouldn’t have to pay the same rates of national insurance and income tax.

I don’t think reform actually think.

On another note, my husband was an EU citizen with indefinite leave, we got his citizenship sorted as soon as we could as you genuinely don’t know what the future holds.

I think it’s fine to have NHS surcharge, minimum income requirements etc for immigrants but once they have indefinite leave to remain then they should be treated like UK nationals imo.

I don't think there's any danger this will actually become law, but presumably if it did EU counties would reciprocate by ensuring none of our citizens are entitled to state support there?

once they are legally here and have worked for a minimum period yes. Before that, no they shouldn’t. I’d include nhs in that too.

I think it would be fair to say contribute net for 10 years before taking out in the form of UC, housing benefits, child benefit, pension credit, state pension, and funded nursery places. After 10 years of net contributions I think it's fair they can claim. We have to remember when more people come to live in the UK we need more schools, hospitals, support infrastructure, roads etc do paying tax and NIC pays for those. The welfare bill is huge. Also the UK does not recognise bigimous marriages and so should never pay benefits for multiple wives. Most EU citizens come over when young so do work and don't claimany benefits. However they do sometimes bring elderly parents who then claim pension credit from the UK after only living here a couple of years. I think this policy has a lot of negotiations with EU but will be popular.

In many countries a UK citizen wouldn't get state support. They have to prove they can pay for themselves to be allowed to stay indefinitely.

Reform is a party for not so smart people.
I have leave to remain. I have lived here for 30 years, I am a higher rate tax payer and have never claimed anything in benefit except child benefit. I expect a lot of us non citizens contribute more to the country than most Reform voters.

I think it would be fair to say contribute net for 10 years before taking out in the form of UC, housing benefits, child benefit, pension credit, state pension, and funded nursery places. After 10 years of net contributions I think it's fair they can claim.

That’s not Reform’s policy proposal though.

Reforms policy is stupid.

Tax isn't just for benefits.

Tax funds the NHS, the Education system, the Police, some Transport - such as road maintenance, fixing bridges etc.

If you're using all the above you need to pay tax if you are working. You could argue that they might get a reduction if they don't qualify for benefits - but that would be so difficult to do - hence, it's a stupid idea and not fair.

TBF not all British citizens are eligible for benefits, even if they pay all their tax. We have paid lots of tax over the years but we were never entitled to any benefits except child benefit, and (what was then called unemployment benefit) for a few months in our twenties. As things stand if we need care in our old age we will have to fund it ourselves. As a PP points out, how many benefits would a British citizen be entitled to if they were living abroad?

Having said that there are British people abroad who are cheating by continuing claiming benefits illegally and getting their free prescriptions collected by family members and sent abroad, so that should be clamped down on too.

There are also too many foreign claimants getting benefits which they send abroad. The whole economic case for paying benefits is that the money stays in and is spent in the British economy. If millions, or even possibly billions, of pounds of benefit money is leaving the country each year then that is not sustainable .

The main problem is to cut the the out of control welfare bill in a fair and equitable way, and none of the parties seem to have come up with a way of doing that as none of them want to piss off their core voters.

Some citizens aren’t entitled to child benefit either so should they pay less tax as they don’t get anything out? What about those who don’t use the NHS can they get a tax break for not using the system?
It’s far more complex than making blanket statements but it’s also gone the other way where there may be lots of individuals who may not be entitled getting payments or those who could support themselves not wanting to. The overall reform of the taxation / benefits system is not simple and the things that could be done are too radical. It it was straightforward something would be done already.

Well a good start might be to make employers pay a fair wage so that the tax payer is not subsidising their employees wages with benefits, while they continue to pay their share holders massive dividends etc. I think most would vote for this...

My son lives in America, has done for 15 years, and pays into their system. He could not, however, claim any help, if he needed it, from their taxpayers.

We help everyone, regardless.

Perhaps a happy medium might be good.

Your son mustn’t have permanent residency so that’s not a direct comparison to the topic in my post

I fear this is Reforms plan though.

Stop anyone coming into our island but also prevent anyone leaving (except themselves of course!)

When I lived in Spain I had worked and paid NI etc in the Uk for many years.
I became resident and worked and paid taxes there and therefore my British National ds (although born in Spain) got child benefit paid by the Spanish government. his birth and healthcare was covered by the Spanish government.

They haven’t considered that it works both ways.

There are many countries where this is the case. Singapore charges the same taxes to all residents whether citizens or not but has so many benefits for citizens that non citizen residents don’t get. Japan requires everyone to pay into their pension scheme, if you pay in for 2 years you can reclaim payments for up to 5 years if you leave but you have to pay in for 10 to get anything paid as a pension later so there’s huge amounts of money going into the system from people who pay for between 5 years and 9 y 11m who will never benefit.

Of course it wouldn’t. Plenty of British people never claim benefits either. You don’t put in to claim. Taxes pay for all the things that keep us safe and keep society functioning- the justice system, energy, infrastructure, defence. Any working resident needs to contribute ute to that

Remain are just dog whistling as usual. Unfortunately there are a lot of "dogs" in the country right now.

Reform voters don’t consider why people might live in other countries or see the benefit of being able to do so (as seen with Brexit). All they see is people coming to get a slice of the NHS which is laughable. Most European countries have better healthcare than the UK.

Presumably most of them have the option of becoming citizens

I wouldn’t put too much thought into their policies to be honest.

Playing devil’s advocate though it is not unusual for citizenship to carry additional “benefits” to simply tax payers, so its not a crazy suggestion as theirs go.

Reform are agitators

they say stuff that a lot of people agree with

they have no real intention of being in charge
but what they do is force other parties to offer similar if not the same policy’s

conservatives have pretty much made statements very similar to reform and I wouldn’t be surprised if labour attempt to do the same

only difference is they would allow eu members with settled status to carry on living in social housing whereas Reform won’t allow this and will evict them

You don’t pay tax in order to be eligible for benefits so it’s not a real argument.

You pay tax because you live in the country and you make use of the services, councils, bin collections, roads, policing and on and on and on.

It seems reasonable that there would be more restrictions on non UK nationals claiming benefits imo.

Lots of EU countries do already have this.

in Austria for example if you are legally employed or a permanent resident you are eligible for benefits but not otherwise

https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-030-51241-5_2

National Insurance no, but he benefits from paying tax as he has access to emergency services etc. I hate Reform btw.