Should non-citizens pay the same tax if excluded from benefits?

[InWithPeaceOutWithStress]

Reform’s latest policy proposals include cutting all benefits for foreign nationals including EU nationals with leave to remain.

My partner is an EU citizen with indefinite leave to remain. He’s never claimed any benefits but you never know what’s round the corner.

It seems unfair to expect him to continue paying the same rate of national insurance and income tax if he isn’t entitled to the same benefits I’d be entitled to. Have Reform thought that through?

If our household isn’t entitled to the same safety net, we shouldn’t have to pay the same rates of national insurance and income tax.

Anyway Blossomtoes it's only a part of my income. I also have a Teachers Pension, an annuity and investment income. BTL is just part of my income stream. I also foster disabled DC and the money from the BTL allows me to be able to fund the DC I foster to have a nice life after having a shitty start in life. Without the BTL I couldn't afford to give eldest foster child and allowance whilst he is at uni every month. I couldn't afford to take all 3 DC on nice overseas holidays twice a year. I could manage perfectly well myself without my BTL income and when I stop fostering/shared lives caring I'll be selling my houses to give foster DC a decent deposit each.

I'm not saying it's an EU thing but they have only paid into UK system a few years and already taking out.

And yet my tenants all seem to like me. I have been invited to 2 weddings and I'm Godmother to one DC.

They must have settled or pre settled status to do so.

Either way, what your tenants are doing surely isn’t an indicator of what most EU citizens living in the Uk is doing. This is Reform rhetoric and should always be challenged.

Have to admit I’m not keen on that. If things keep going the way they are in the U.K. I’d like us to retain the option of moving to Europe.

@caringcarer , iirc your husband is a Reform councillor?

Me too. I would not want to live here under a Reform government. I like living here. DH is British. I do not however feel British or like I want to become a British national.

Fair enough, I don’t see how the policy would save much if everyone became citizens but maybe more would feel similarly.

Yes, he is. I am also a Reform member as are many of our friends.

That’s odd. My dad worked in the US for 24ys, he was eligible for and claimed a US Social Security old age pension despite being a foreign national living outside the US by then. It wasn’t much money.

He also was out of work for a bit, and I remember as a child he did get some unemployment benefit then as we had food stamps.

Why can’t you relocate? You can get your UK pension while living in France.
Pension systems are different from benefits. If you went to France, once you’d gotten to a 10yr visa (takes 4 years), you’d be eligible for disability benefits among others.

I think a lot of Brit would like to leave the Uk too if Reform came into government, but would be stuck.

Just for the record you can’t claim Job Seekers Allowance if you haven’t been paying NI contributions.

Yep, stuck not just because of red tape but because my health would mean no other country would want me. But I also think I couldn't cope with moving abroad now, anyway.

The prospect of what a Reform government might do to this country terrifies me, quite frankly

This doesn’t make any sense. You’d be entitled to claim your UK pension if you paid enough NI contributions, regardless of living in uk or France.

You can also continue to make NI contributions if you live abroad.

And if you didn’t do the above, surely £100k passive income per year is enough to live on, without the £12k state pension on top?

It’s a safety net. I’m a higher rate tax payer (just) and don’t claim benefits. However if I lost my job or was struck down by a serious illness and disability, I’d be entitled to benefits.

The pension is subject to a negotiated US-UK treaty - exact details have evolved so I am not up on all the details, but in essence it makes benefits / contributions transferable between the two countries and has nothing to do with immigration status. In essence contributions to one system can count in the other - I can count my first 10 years of US contributions towards a UK state pension, and if I moved back to the US at retirement I could count my 20 or so years of UK contributions towards US social security eligibility.

I have ILR and personally think it is fair to have reduced access to benefits, including a safety net. And unfortunately with tax you can’t just pay for the bits you are eligible for - in general the people paying the bulk of tax are the ones using the least in services and support.

if you want full entitlement, get citizenship- personally I think there should be a difference in entitlement between full citizens and ILR visa holders.

Can you articulate why?

What do you think you should / should not be entitled to?

As people are often told on here the money you pay in NI doesn't go to a pot with your name on.

Your dh would be too as a citizen. But as you say you’d go in any case he might not do that.

No comment on Reform but tax-wise: it is fair. They shouldn't be allowed to stay in the country without a job anyway and if too ill to work: we don't need them to stay. They need to 'catch up' to the rest of us on paying tax. So until they have paid in for X amount of time, they shouldn't be allowed to claim our benefits and their home country should pay/reimburse instead. We need those types of deals to be a two-way thing with other countries. So I apply this to Brits living abroad too. Once they are citizens, then the 'transfer' takes place and they are entitled to benefits etc. Kind of like probation at work. Remember, they could go home at any point and then why have we just spent potentially thousands upon thousands in benefits, instead of their own country paying it. It's also about intent to stay and contribute to our country and help build and maintain it. So many people come over to work, take advantage of the infrastructure / fair wages etc and send their earnings home to be spent in their home countries, helping those economies. That doesn't seem fair.

I'd add in a requirement to demonstrate that X% of income earned remains in this country, as a requirement to qualify for benefits and citizenship.

So as I am not a British citizen, but have lived and worked and paid taxes for 30 years, if I became ill, I should not be entitled to benefits. You don’t need me anymore? Are you actually listening to yourself?

Since Brexit I can only spend 3 months out of each 6 months thete. Plus now eldest shared lives DS is at uni he needs a lot of support. Some can be done over phone or email but a lot needs to be given in person hense my DH spent 4 days a week last year living with him in adjacent disabled room at I I then they both came home for 3 nights each week. I wanted to move before we knew it was possible for former foster son but living with us under shared lives was able to go to uni. He's got 3 more years so we will revisit idea then.