Should non-citizens pay the same tax if excluded from benefits?

[InWithPeaceOutWithStress]

Reform’s latest policy proposals include cutting all benefits for foreign nationals including EU nationals with leave to remain.

My partner is an EU citizen with indefinite leave to remain. He’s never claimed any benefits but you never know what’s round the corner.

It seems unfair to expect him to continue paying the same rate of national insurance and income tax if he isn’t entitled to the same benefits I’d be entitled to. Have Reform thought that through?

If our household isn’t entitled to the same safety net, we shouldn’t have to pay the same rates of national insurance and income tax.

If those finances are true it is enough to get a visa for France, the choices would be a shorter visa (easy to extend) and an income of around €1,400 a month, or a longer visa with proof of savings which is about €60,000. So both an easy possibility before you add on any state or private pension.

As a noncitizen I don’t feel entitled to anything. Pragmatically I think the uk benefits from immigrant labour, and therefore it makes sense to grant access to benefits that facilitate said labour (access to education, healthcare - though I think a reasonable supplement would be acceptable, short term unemployment insurance, etc) but don’t feel like I should expect the uk to fund my life indefinitely if I stop working.

for those that intend to settle long term, citizenship is an accessible path. Many don’t pursue citizenship because there is no real benefit over and above ILR. Personally I think there should be more of a distinction between the two statuses.

Yes, but I wouldn't worry about it because it won't happen, as with many of these grand pronouncements - unfortunately in some cases.

Have you applied to the Pope for sainthood yet?

Why should there be more of an extinction. Why is it so important for you that people get British citizenships? What difference does it make?
Some European countries don’t allow dual citizenships. Personally I don’t feel British at all. If I was to get British citizenship the only difference it would make would be me paying £££ to take a quite frankly stupid test and kiss the British flag or whatever you need to do at the ceremony afterwards.

As a Reform.member you surely wouldn't want to live in France/the EU?

How do you feel about the proposed changes to PIP?

Lots of people pay for things and get very little back, eg only 6 months of JSA if you're married to someone who works FT, despite the fact you've paid decades of tax and NI (if this has changed recently ok, but there'll be similar examples).
Even if you don't want kids, you have to pay for everyone else's, and yes some of them might pay for things for you/look after you, but a massive number are born to families who have never worked/are part of the gangs trashing emergency services.
So it's not about pay in so you can take out.

I think it’s completely fair and it will incentivise those with indefinite leave to become citizens. The welfare bill is unaffordable and benefits should be limited to citizens with the greatest need. The same principle should apply to council housing.

If you moved to France and worked and paid into the system you would absolutely be entitled to a French pension for the years you worked in France. assuming you had paid in for long enough. I think this is the case pretty much anywhere regardless of nationality.

With 100k/year income, I would be surprised if you couldn’t get a titre de sejour in France. I know American retirees who have come over with less than that in pension income who have been granted their visa. You would likely struggle to apply for nationality but living here would be no problem.

Noone can answer why it’s so important that we become citizens. Why can we not have ILR? What’s the difference really?

I was born overseas but am a British citizen. I’m proud of it and it makes me feel like I belong here now. I don’t think I would feel the same sense of pride with just ILR. For me, I have committed to becoming part of the culture and adopting nationality. It is symbolic but I find it meaningful. I would like to think encouraging citizenship is good for community cohesion.

I think maybe there's a feeling that people with ILR might just up sticks and leave. Whereas if you are a citizen, you're stuck here.

I have also known people who have lived in a country for many years and make a big thing of not wanting to be a citizen. So to them, not being a citizen means something. But I look at it the opposite way, having citizenship means I am committed to my life here and am part of this country. I actually do believe that and don’t care if it sounds corny to some.

I don't think you have to have citizenship to feel you belong to a country but appreciate that iit s a personal thing.

@TopPocketFind

It doesn’t need to be anything exclusive, so citizens definitely do not have a monopoly on belonging. But it is just something that I am proud of and as someone foreign born and raised abroad it is something positive in my life. I know this isn’t unique to me. It is a little sad that so many people (especially cool mumsnetters) are cynical about it. Symbols and symbolic gestures can be really important on an individual and on a community level.

These posts don’t make any sense to me. So what if people are more likely to return to their home countries with ILR. Surely that is exactly what you reformers would like? You don’t have to pay for us in old age then!
The other posts are just your own personal emotional reflections about belonging. Nothing more, nothing less really.

I find it meaningful but I can see others might not. Plus some countries make people choose as they can’t double up which would be hard.

@Onmyhighhorse2

I’m not a Reformer and can’t stand the party. But I do think it’s fair for benefits to be linked to citizenship.

I only brought up my personal circumstances because of the posts on here suggesting that citizenship is meaningless or pointless. My response is that it is positive and meaningful for me.

To be honest you don’t sound very nice!

@EasternStandard

I agree that it would be unfair for those who can’t hold dual nationality. I wonder if an exception could be made in those circumstances? I don’t know the answer to that.

I am foreign born too, I just feel different about it than you. Neither of us is wrong in feeling how we do.

Why do I not sound very nice? Because I do not agree with you? You are still not articulating what the difference between me with ILR and you with citizenship is to make me less deserving of benefits should I one day need it. It’s great that citizenship is meaningful to you. The issue I have is that you think that must apply to everyone without being able to explain why. Sense of belonging etc….

UK citizens who were living in the EU before 31 December 2020 are generally treated the same or similar to locals. It’s part of our agreement with the EU. If Reform’s policy is implemented, we will be breaking our agreement and I imagine the EU will do the same to our citizens.

i doubt Reform will win the next general election.

Also if every foreign national was to get citizenship, what is there to stop a party putting up more conditions, British born for example?

Don’t care in the slightest if you get citizenship or not - I don’t have citizenship either.

Citizenship requires a long-term, legally binding commitment to the country whereas I could give up my ILR next week if I chose. I think it is acceptable to limit certain benefits to those who have a higher level of commitment.

by all means don’t take the test or pay the application fee (no flag kissing required) but your sense of entitlement to all the rights and benefits of citizenship is totally unjustified.

So I think a few things are being conflated. If your husband has indefinite leave to remain he can within 12 months apply to be a citizen and then choose to become dual if that suits him. I get there is a cost to that (I have done it myself so know all the steps and costs) but that may be a good way forward.

As you know, when you apply for indefinite leave to remain, you need to prove that you are able to support yourself for that time from savings without using public funds so actually I don't understand the problem here. You can't apply for benefits anyway.....

Additionally, I'm assuming your husband isn't in need of a pension right now, so we are talking welfare/UC benefits as he is able to access a doctor, healthcare, your kids can go to school etc. then no he isn't eligible anyway.

So he pays tax like everyone else to get an ambulance if he needs one and for the police to investigate a crime on his behalf (God forbid) etc.

He doesn't pay tax under ILR to get UC.

I may not agree with Reform, but I think some facts are needed here.