Is Matt Goodwin correct about this?

[molanasulfi]

Is professor Matthew Goodwin right that that middle-class leftists are so angry at Brexit, because it is the first time they have lost a major thing and it infuriates then to see the working class get one over on them?

if more people accepted that despite their mortgage, degree or professional job

People with professional jobs aren’t working class.

Well that’s rather the point of the dispute isn’t it?

I have a professional job and view myself as working class. Why would you suggest I’m not? I didn’t have any of the privilege that comes with being middle class

But you do now because that’s what you are. Do you not believe in social mobility?

Social mobility isn’t about moving class for me. The working class can participate in far more of society now than 100 years ago, so it’s not relevant to me.

if middle class is getting a job and a mortgage, so be it- that simply makes it the new working class, or maybe the upper working class in old fashioned terms

Perhaps you don’t understand what social mobility means?

For example, if you have a professional occupation and your parents had a working-class occupation, you have experienced upward occupational mobility. If you have a high income and your parents had a low income, you have experienced upward income mobility.

https://socialmobility.independent-commission.uk/what-is-social-mobility/#:~:text=What%20is%20Social%20Mobility,or%20income%20of%20their%20parents.

I don’t I understand why you keep doing this. Is this a discussion or a swapping of dictionary definitions?

I think my own views and conversations is more thought out than reading basic, old fashioned defintions. I don’t know what you think you’re winning here.
I’m allowed to say I’m working class- being the one with the lived experience and all- and I am not obliged to agree with the definition you have linked. Surely we can have a more valuable conversation than that?

So rude. You haven't dealt with the point I raised in any way other than making patronising, superior sniping remarks like "sighing". Nothing substantive. I can't see that going down well in even a 6th form debate.

Even the Labour Party are defining the working class differently and keep changing their mind. Why is it so ridiculous to try and think about the issue and whether the country and society has changed in any way in the last 50 years.

It was simply the facts? Hence why most people don't think the win could be replicated in those numbers in many other constituencies.

No, people are angry about it because of the very visible harm it's done, and I don't think it was all working class people voting for it by a long shot. Plus it's made things even worse for the less well off , so it's not like we middle class lefties could feel more hard done by than they are, I'm personally furious for the way it's screwed over the most vulnerable. I don't think anyone sees it as a 'working class win' in any sense. Goodwin's stance is a desperate attempt to go 'Well maybe nothing good resulted, but working class people got one over on middle class lefties and they must be fuming!'

Good point. It would be a lot less divisive for society. The measures to divide people into classes are so arbitrary and don't really reflect today's society. Presumably why Labour are trying to change the definition themselves as mentioned which seems to be missed by some posters wedded to the definitions when Britain was a large manufacturing country and most people carried out manual labour.

We do need to take into consideration the destructive effects of covid happening just at the time of Brexit.

I totally agree. Well said.

Even the Labour Party are defining the working class differently

The Labour Party government has never mentioned class. It refers to working people.

Are you saying Muslims can't be working class?

Maybe a Green win cannot be replicated, an anti Reform vote can.

Makes no difference if they are working class or not if they vote according to their religion rather than class.

Yes tactical voting could keep out Reform. Although I suspect more people will he voting tactically to keep the Labour shower out.

Well that rather proves my ENTIRE POINT.

Voting according to their religion? You think that is the Green party?

Voting to keep Labour out is a vote to the left as is the anti Reform vote

Does it? Really?

TBF they rowed back on it. Which came as a huge surprise.

That by election proved the existence of Muslim block voting. Mainly guided by the Greens stance on Gaza v Labour's.

Don't understand your last sentence. Labour are left wing. I know the far left disagree. But on the basis the last government were centrist Labour are definitely left.

Is that proven or merely your opinion (and Reform's)?

Can hardly be surprising that a constituency that has a history of voting left, continued to vote left.

I read the news. Most responsible news outlets confirm it. We shall see what happens anyway. It will become obvious whether we have sectarian voting here on mainland Britain fairly soon. I hope we don't and the Greens start electioneering a little more responsibly.

Are the Greens and Labour the same type of "left"? Or has there been a change?

Precisely. And most commentators seem to think it would have been a Labour win if Burnham had stood.