Starmer Must Go

[BisiBodi]

I made a lengthy post yesterday (on this thread: www.mumsnet.com/talk/politics/5333405-changes-to-immigration-rules-announced-by-starmer?page=2 @ 17:43 if you want to read it) regarding the horrendous "island of strangers" speech by Starmer
Today, Kier Starmer has decided to say that immigration has done "incalculable damage" to the country. My despair and fury over this, and the general direction of labour, warrants its own thread.

Starmer claimed in writing that immigrants have put too much pressure on housing and public services (they don't, and he previously said they don't). He added that the immigration system is “almost designed to permit abuse” and that it risks “pulling the country apart”. He said that he wanted to close a “squalid chapter” in our country’s history (of too much immigration in the last few years), and then he seemed to quote the Rivers of Blood speech and said that without significantly reducing immigration the UK risks becoming “an island of strangers".

He's doing this because he's proposing new laws to make immigration harder and bring net migration down (except they definitely won't). Stuff like increasing it to 10 years before you can apply for indefinite leave to remain (10 years!!), introducing English language tests (in a post that suggests Welsh doesn't exist), reducing social care visas (the system would collapse in a day), being tougher on overseas students and reducing the time they can stay after graduation (if you reduce their numbers at all then Universities will be bankrupt immediately), new ID cards, reduce (oh sorry, "clarify") the amount ECHR article 8 can be used to justify people staying on human rights grounds, etc.

When someone pointed out that high migration helps economies and low hurts them, and that this is true in the EU right now and all over the world, Starmer didn't think so. He said that immigration has been high in the UK but the economy has been stagnant, so there can't be any link. Yes Keir, but the economy was stagnant during A PANDEMIC AND ENERGY CRISIS AND COST OF LIVING CRISIS AND EXPENSIVE NEW WARS AND GLOBAL MARKET TRUMP TURMOIL. If the immigrants hadn't kept us level, your "stagnant" economy would have plummeted like a rock. You cannot possibly be presenting that as X=Y in a total vacuum.

This kind of xenophobia doesn't need explaining, but it's worth saying why it won't work and will lose Labour a lot of votes:

• Conservative and Reform voters do NOT change their vote to Labour ever, so this pandering is worthless. But Labour can lose votes to the Greens and LDs at a high rate. Nearly ALL the Reform votes come from former Conservatives.
• Public concern about immigration is low and goes up and down exactly with how much the press is currently going on about it (see the graph) so is not worth alienating your voter base about
• And it is alienating voters, because you've heard this kind of rhetoric before but it was from the actual NF and BNP
• The Mail's headline today was still attacking Labour because it is impossible to ever go far enough for them, or for Reform voters. Nothing is ever enough.

So, Labour saying "Reform are right actually" won't bring a single voter over to Labour, but it sure will lose you a few. Or, er, a lot. People are resigning their Labour membership and sounding furious. I haven't seen a single event trigger this much outrage from the public (and Labour MPs) in quite a while. Starmer has hugely damaged himself. Germany's far-right AfD are praising him, that's the level it's at.

I already left for the Greens, but today has me going even further. I think it's now worth the potential chaos to get rid of Starmer's version of Labour. In a timely article today, Nesrine Malik called our current elections "hostage politics". You MUST vote Labour or the Tories will get in. Now you MUST vote Labour or Reform will get in.

I don't respond well to threats. Never have. I tend to escalate. And I'm bored of their crap: more cuts, keeping first-past-the-post even though Labour members want PR, refusing to talk about rejoining the EU even though Labour members (and the majority of the country) want full rejoin, this xenophobic shit which goes against everything Starmer said about immigration when he was running for leader (but then he's broken every pledge from that time), the anti-trans bollocks, coming for the disabled PIP and saying all benefits are too high and that people are taking advantage of handouts and all the rest.

Fuck these guys. There's pragmatic politics where you compromise, and then there's this literal far-right shit that means you personally HAVE to be comfortable with saying it in public. It's about the soul of the PM and the party. Today is way over the line of sensible cross-party anything.

And I'm done with hostage politics. What, so we keep Labour in for 8 more years of... this? Of the same or more cuts? I'm rapidly approaching the point where smashing this Labour party so that they never try to be centre- / far-right again would do more good than the short-term harm.

Voters didn't show unwavering support for Labour at the last election, they showed that they will be extremely flexible and vote for whoever can win in their area. If Labour become unpopular in the polls, that will be someone else and not them. Labour's lead is incredibly fragile and changeable and today's performance is EXACTLY how they lose it and deserve to lose it. Yes, some young men went to Reform before the election... and twice as many young women went to the Greens. Labour's share fell 21% in 18-24 year olds. You cannot gain a single Reform vote by going right. It will never be far-right enough.
Saying that Reform are correct and using their rhetoric in speeches and changing your policies to theirs is NOT how you defeat them, or run a country.

Replace Starmer, quickly. At the very least.

And so what is the purpose of this thread, other than to vent into an online echo-chamber? I think it's a request to a call to action. It's a call out to everyone who currently resides - whether you like it or not - in a Labour controlled constituency and has a labour MP.

You can easily find out the details, together with links to their speeches and/or voting records, from service such as They Work For You.
Check the details of your MP, and especially their stance on immigration and other matters important to you, then email them.

KS will say what he thinks he has to say and do anything to stay in power. Just surprised you only just realised this. I was on to him years ago. Your claim th public does not care about immigration is blatantly not true as the Reform vote has sky rocketed. Who do you think KS could be replaced by? Very few candidates in Labour party imho. KS just looks pathetic as previously when PP he wanted immigration far more open. If you honestly believe high immigration does not put a strain on housing you must live on a different planet. I'm a LL and whenever I advertise a 3 bedroom house with a garden or even a backyard I get about 40 people wanting to rent it and I'd estimate about 1/2 are immigrants. 10 years ago I'd only get about 13 wanting to rent it and maybe 3 or 4 would have been immigrants. Other LL's I know say the same and I let houses in different areas of country so not a localised issue.

10 years leaves an opening to negotiate a 5 year rule for EU/EFTA, just like Switzerland. So 10 years is for non EU.

well spotted. And how relevant it may come to be for the UK

Who do you think can protect our borders?

He doesn’t have to do or say anything to stay in power for the next four years. Just nine months ago the biggest concerns of the electorate were the NHS and cost of living, with immigration third. Thanks to Farage’s rhetoric a section of the population has become obsessed.

New Zealand, Australia and the United States are all countries founded on immigration from Europe with little regard for natives. Their histories are very different to those of European countries with deep cultural and language traditions.

Labour are in power for the next 4 years. That doesn't mean KS has to be in power as Labour leader. KS breaks his promises. He's a serial flip-flopper Before he was in power he backed WASPI women, now in power he refuses to back independent investigation outcome. Before election he told pensioners he'd like ok after them, as soon as in power he takes a ay their WFA. Before election he criticised the Tory's for cutting Overseas Aid Budget, once in power he made further cuts to it. His latest flip flops is immigration is good for UK, now he says it's bad for UK. People are finally seeing right through his flip flops.

He’s all over the place. He’s fairly loathed and that’s partly why.

Labour are in power for the next 4 years. That doesn't mean KS has to be in power as Labour leader.

Who would you prefer in his place though? I think on some of the things he's done are things that wont be reversed by anyone, because they are unsustainable, like the WFA. The limit is too low, but it should never have been universal. Pensioners have been up in arms because they have not had to face the hardships that the rest of the population have had to. The immigration system is in absolute chaos, mainly because people are taking the piss and the Tories were in too much disarray to do anything about it. The rules are not being followed and people are taking massive advantage. Whoever replaces Starmer will not do anything different.

Whoever is prepared to do whatever it takes.

You cant use individual cases or examples to form immigration policy though. Most people have always been welcoming or at least tolerant of immigrants, especially the ones who are working in skilled occupations who speak English and are needed. The problem is that the level of immigration has increased in a very short time by an enormous amount, and much of that is through people playing the system- enrolling on dodgy University courses when there is no way they have the levels of English that should be required to pass, people applying for skilled worker' visas in order to work in care work, them leaving after few months to work as taxi drivers and deliveroo drivers, people who own corner shops applying for hundreds of 'skilled worker' visas in what is clearly a scam, especially when they then bring 10 other dependents over who speak little to no English and can't work ( mostly women who are then trapped at home, being kept prisoner by poverty and inability to work or take part in the community) . There are far too many of these types of visas being issued and it causes a huge burden on the system. Its not for the scammers to behave properly, it is for the government to make sure rules are enforced. Having such a huge increase in immigration in a short time makes life difficult for everyone, including immigrants who are here legitimately and contribute.

If he starts to deliver on these policies, and we see immigration of low skilled migrants drop, Labour will get my vote.
I’d prefer to see Labour in power than Reform, but the crazy levels of immigration has to stop.
If Labour do not make good, I’ll vote Reform.

How will you know which types of migrants have left? We are all in one bucket, the high skilled and the low skilled.

This is the problem with labelling something a "Skilled Worker" visa and handing it out to everyone from convenience store managers to financial services execs.

Also, in 10 years Reform will be here, and they may take away settlement again. Why would anyone trust the UK government now with retroactive effect? Skilled workers have already lost trust.

@bombastixthe period is 5 years in us/aus/nz but with much stricter criteria to accompany that. I think most people would be ok with 5 years for the most skilled

I’m not far from Birmingham and go shopping regularly and it’s become an absolute shithole in recent years. It used to be a great city.
DD visited a friend in Bradford and said she felt extremely unsafe and outnumbered as a young white woman, bearing in mind we live in a very multi cultural town.

It’s extremely worrying and whoever stops it will get my vote!

I’ve been to Bradford and felt unsafe daytime would not want to be there after dark as a white woman alone …what a terrible state this country is in.

Someone has to stop the madness …they have to do something pronto

I hope so too. Who else is going to do it? The Tories have been promising change for years and managed eff all.

I very much doubt Reform would be able to deliver despite all the rhetoric.

I’m lucky to live in an affluent area but the local town with the big shopping centre is just dreadful. There are so many bloody chicken shops, Turkish barbers and vape shops. The place is rapidly going to shit.

It's not Farage's rhetoric that has made people 'obsessed'.
He is mearly reflecting a popular position because of reality on the ground.
70% don't want immigration and feel that it has been too fast for the last decade and both parties had the same policy and so it has not been addressed for a decade.

We also need immigration officers to go into these places and check their status ( ditto car washes, nail bars and candy stores) to make sure the people there are legit. There seems to be a romanticisation of immigration, legal and illegal from the Left that didn't exist in the ' old' Left that actually did give a toss about the working class. It's fine to say ' Oh we should all be able to live where we want, a world without borders' if you are relatively wealthy and don't live in places where gangs of young men, some in, or owing money to, criminal gangs roam the streets, or where your neighbourhood is filled with HMO'S where people are crammed into every room. Parts of Sweden have been destroyed by these criminal gangs, yet anyone who tries to deal with this is hammered by the Left. Look at the immigration statistics. Immigration was complained about by Farage etc , which led to Brexit, but since then it's skyrocketed. That is a Tory botch that needs yo be remedied urgently. It can't stay the same.

Nail on the head. We need to actually start enforcing existing laws like modern slavery, money laundering, tax evasion, that will make us a less attractive place for the criminal elements to live. Even shoplifting, riding illegal e bikes, food deliverers with no valid car insurance, driving without a valid driving licence. We’re just too soft on crime generally and need to massively ramp up enforcement. Stop the black economy which already costs billions in tax evasion alone.

Get the police, councils, DVLA, border security, etc all working together, to close down the money laundering places, the car washes run on slavery, etc and all that goes with it. We’ve lost control and the criminals know they’re likely to get away with it, whether they’re gang masters, drug dealers, shoplifters, small trader VAT fraudsters - it’s become endemic.

Nail on the head. We need to actually start enforcing existing laws like modern slavery, money laundering, tax evasion, that will make us a less attractive place for the criminal elements to live. Even shoplifting, riding illegal e bikes, food deliverers with no valid car insurance, driving without a valid driving licence. We’re just too soft on crime generally and need to massively ramp up enforcement. Stop the black economy which already costs billions in tax evasion alone.

We have run out of prison places now so that's not going to happen. We are in a lot of trouble.

Doesn’t have to be prison. These are mostly financial crimes, so hit them in the pocket - large fines, sequestration of assets, freeze bank accounts, etc., driving bans and vehicles crushed where vehicles involved, etc. More than one way to skin a cat.

It can’t just be a Tory botch. France, Germany, Sweden are all experiencing the same mass migration issues and the consequences it has on local customs/services and the criminal gangs. Whether Tory, Labour, Reform the era of mass migration is a documented phenomenon and requires Cross party and cross European collaboration and with climate change it is only going to get worse. Some may want to believe Farage can swing a magic wand somehow but he definitely cannot. That is just make belief. Boris Johnson‘s Government made things worse by being ultra lax, in Germany it was Merkel being ultra humanitarian.