Starmer Must Go

[BisiBodi]

I made a lengthy post yesterday (on this thread: www.mumsnet.com/talk/politics/5333405-changes-to-immigration-rules-announced-by-starmer?page=2 @ 17:43 if you want to read it) regarding the horrendous "island of strangers" speech by Starmer
Today, Kier Starmer has decided to say that immigration has done "incalculable damage" to the country. My despair and fury over this, and the general direction of labour, warrants its own thread.

Starmer claimed in writing that immigrants have put too much pressure on housing and public services (they don't, and he previously said they don't). He added that the immigration system is “almost designed to permit abuse” and that it risks “pulling the country apart”. He said that he wanted to close a “squalid chapter” in our country’s history (of too much immigration in the last few years), and then he seemed to quote the Rivers of Blood speech and said that without significantly reducing immigration the UK risks becoming “an island of strangers".

He's doing this because he's proposing new laws to make immigration harder and bring net migration down (except they definitely won't). Stuff like increasing it to 10 years before you can apply for indefinite leave to remain (10 years!!), introducing English language tests (in a post that suggests Welsh doesn't exist), reducing social care visas (the system would collapse in a day), being tougher on overseas students and reducing the time they can stay after graduation (if you reduce their numbers at all then Universities will be bankrupt immediately), new ID cards, reduce (oh sorry, "clarify") the amount ECHR article 8 can be used to justify people staying on human rights grounds, etc.

When someone pointed out that high migration helps economies and low hurts them, and that this is true in the EU right now and all over the world, Starmer didn't think so. He said that immigration has been high in the UK but the economy has been stagnant, so there can't be any link. Yes Keir, but the economy was stagnant during A PANDEMIC AND ENERGY CRISIS AND COST OF LIVING CRISIS AND EXPENSIVE NEW WARS AND GLOBAL MARKET TRUMP TURMOIL. If the immigrants hadn't kept us level, your "stagnant" economy would have plummeted like a rock. You cannot possibly be presenting that as X=Y in a total vacuum.

This kind of xenophobia doesn't need explaining, but it's worth saying why it won't work and will lose Labour a lot of votes:

• Conservative and Reform voters do NOT change their vote to Labour ever, so this pandering is worthless. But Labour can lose votes to the Greens and LDs at a high rate. Nearly ALL the Reform votes come from former Conservatives.
• Public concern about immigration is low and goes up and down exactly with how much the press is currently going on about it (see the graph) so is not worth alienating your voter base about
• And it is alienating voters, because you've heard this kind of rhetoric before but it was from the actual NF and BNP
• The Mail's headline today was still attacking Labour because it is impossible to ever go far enough for them, or for Reform voters. Nothing is ever enough.

So, Labour saying "Reform are right actually" won't bring a single voter over to Labour, but it sure will lose you a few. Or, er, a lot. People are resigning their Labour membership and sounding furious. I haven't seen a single event trigger this much outrage from the public (and Labour MPs) in quite a while. Starmer has hugely damaged himself. Germany's far-right AfD are praising him, that's the level it's at.

I already left for the Greens, but today has me going even further. I think it's now worth the potential chaos to get rid of Starmer's version of Labour. In a timely article today, Nesrine Malik called our current elections "hostage politics". You MUST vote Labour or the Tories will get in. Now you MUST vote Labour or Reform will get in.

I don't respond well to threats. Never have. I tend to escalate. And I'm bored of their crap: more cuts, keeping first-past-the-post even though Labour members want PR, refusing to talk about rejoining the EU even though Labour members (and the majority of the country) want full rejoin, this xenophobic shit which goes against everything Starmer said about immigration when he was running for leader (but then he's broken every pledge from that time), the anti-trans bollocks, coming for the disabled PIP and saying all benefits are too high and that people are taking advantage of handouts and all the rest.

Fuck these guys. There's pragmatic politics where you compromise, and then there's this literal far-right shit that means you personally HAVE to be comfortable with saying it in public. It's about the soul of the PM and the party. Today is way over the line of sensible cross-party anything.

And I'm done with hostage politics. What, so we keep Labour in for 8 more years of... this? Of the same or more cuts? I'm rapidly approaching the point where smashing this Labour party so that they never try to be centre- / far-right again would do more good than the short-term harm.

Voters didn't show unwavering support for Labour at the last election, they showed that they will be extremely flexible and vote for whoever can win in their area. If Labour become unpopular in the polls, that will be someone else and not them. Labour's lead is incredibly fragile and changeable and today's performance is EXACTLY how they lose it and deserve to lose it. Yes, some young men went to Reform before the election... and twice as many young women went to the Greens. Labour's share fell 21% in 18-24 year olds. You cannot gain a single Reform vote by going right. It will never be far-right enough.
Saying that Reform are correct and using their rhetoric in speeches and changing your policies to theirs is NOT how you defeat them, or run a country.

Replace Starmer, quickly. At the very least.

And so what is the purpose of this thread, other than to vent into an online echo-chamber? I think it's a request to a call to action. It's a call out to everyone who currently resides - whether you like it or not - in a Labour controlled constituency and has a labour MP.

You can easily find out the details, together with links to their speeches and/or voting records, from service such as They Work For You.
Check the details of your MP, and especially their stance on immigration and other matters important to you, then email them.

This deal is good for those against illegal migrants because it gives us access to the EU database (including DNA, facial recognition etc). It is exactly what we need to be working on jointly with the EU, preventing criminal gangs operating and flooding all European countries with illegals who are also criminals.

600 approx applications last year? Turing has been a total failure, manly due to how its funded and pushed forward.

Over 7000 Erasmus applications in 2016.

And what is the demographic of the applications?

Does it matter? its 600 vs 7000 !

Are you saying that MC kids shouldn't have opportunities? because thats exactly what it looks like..

As you work with deprived kids, do you encourage them to seek out new opportunities and to expand their horizons?

Anecdotally, the young i know who applied to Erasmus were pretty ordinary state school kids, not deprived by any means but not wealthy either.

Disgusting and another blow to the working class who don't even have human passports, let alone for their dogs.

😂

Boris Johnson labelled Sir Keir Starmer the “orange ball-chewing manacled gimp of Brussels” as he savaged the Prime Minister’s Brexit “reset” deal with the European Union.

Oh dear.

Yes, same here, that's the real world you live in there!

Who is still listening to what he has to say, didn't he promise levelling up after the EU Exit, what happened!

Oh dear indeed. Johnson is not improving with age.

Desperate to stay relevant.

No, no, it’s that kind of Churchillian rhetoric that got him where he is today. At the end of the pier, writing for the Daily Mail.

I thought Major - the original grey man - won in 1992. Maybe I imagined it and we were governed by Kinnock in disguise.

Starmer may well be doing some good, but it's a bit like wetting yourself in dark trousers - you'll get a warm feeling but no one will notice - that's Starmer all over. He hasn't the charisma nor charm to actually get voters to warm to him. A bit like Brown in that respect who likewise had no personality

Starmer has plenty of personality, the trouble is, he wrecked his popularity by taking gifts, after complaining about Tory corruption, of course the 'press played it up and delayed reporting on it.

He was a greedy fool taking these, even if in the rules, it has given the electorate entirely the "wrong" impression of him or perhaps the right one!!!

Whether he wins again in 2029 will depend on the NHS, the economy and migration plus he needs to get a different comms team/advisors in & stop moving to the 'right.

@BisiBodi

"regarding the horrendous "island of strangers" speech by Starmer
Today, Kier Starmer has decided to say that immigration has done "incalculable damage" to the country. My despair and fury over this, and the general direction of labour, warrants its own thread."

I fully appreciate that you personally view the "island of strangers" speech by Starmer as horrendous but in a recent survey carried out a month before this speech 44% of people agreed that they felt like strangers, a figure that's higher amongst Asian British than it is compared to white British. The figures are also higher the more poor people are, higher for Conservative/ Reform voters compared to Labour/ Liberal voters.

The point is that a large number of people in the UK are of the view that immigration levels have been and continue to be too high, that the growth in UK population in the last 25 and especially 10 years means that housing, infrastructure, services, healthcare etc are under greater pressure due to the increased population.

These are fair and legitimate concerns and it not racist to raise these concerns.

If you choose to dismiss these concerns as non existent, racist or thick then you are the reason that parties like Reform are doing well.

news.sky.com/story/people-do-feel-like-strangers-in-britain-but-its-not-just-because-of-migration-polling-finds-13369073

The "Island of Strangers" thing proves exactly why Starmer needs different comms/advisors, he gave the media a false phrase to use against Labour, the speech in context was completely right but he should have used different wording.

There are not enough people in this country who want a “left” Government. That is why he is moving Centre Right. It is all there in the polls, for anyone with a modicum of intelligence to see. It may offend the left in the Party, but if you want to be left, it is Green. Labour are taking the centre ground, like it or not. The Tories have left a big hole right there, for the taking. It is the rationale thing to do and the far lefties in Labour need to shut up or this will be a one term wonder only and they owe it to us as a country. Reform would destroy the country. Perhaps for once they could put the best interests of the country as a whole above their own principles that nobody gives two shits about anyway.

@Araminta1003

"There are not enough people in this country who want a “left” Government"

I would say that "there are not enough people in this country who want a left government in the manner of "left" as defined by Labour Party activists, many new Labour MPs and left wing voters and especially Green voters ."

The "left" was united in their goal of removing the Tories from power. However now that has been achieved , the splits and differences in the "left" are very quickly coming out, amplified by every policy announcement from immigration to WFA and benefits to the relationship with the EU.

Same happened with Blair, Brown and Prescott. The "left" of the Labour party accepted the "sop" of Prescott being the deputy PM, and Brown adopting the Tory spending policies for their first term of office. But for the second term, Brown was given free reign and that's where the wheels started coming off the Labour financial bandwagon. It was their second term where the "left" side didn't want to be kept in their box and started pushing back against Blair who wanted to stay more central. Obviously, then, after the third win, Blair was ousted in a plot by Brown and the more left wingers, resulting in Brown losing the next GE.

That’s an absolute travesty of what happened. So much so that it’s impossible to know where to begin unpicking it. Maybe this will help.

https://www.economicshelp.org/blog/215661/economics/economic-record-of-new-labour-1997-2010/

Totally agree. The UK is a small c country and Labour have only ever been able to win by going centrist. The Tories are ceding their territory all the time to Labour. The shape of who votes for who is undergoing a dramatic realignment as has been clearly for the last decade. The Tories have lost or actually abandoned their traditional vote and Labour have moved from being a workers party to one that looks more academic, metropolitan and middle class. Reform are taking votes from both. I am still of the view that the majority of the UK is not that extreme and that Reform’s current lead will decline, but we are going to have to wait and see.

The problem s the centre ground isn't fixed, eg Sunak as a back bencher, was always considered to the right of the party, now a days, he is seen as a moderate.
Same with Labour, Starmer would fit nicely into a Cameron Govt.

Unfortunately the right wing can't be turned right now. They think Reform will resolve there problems....I've seen it at demonstrators in my city. They think isolation and cutting services are the answer but the truth is the star opposite

The truth is the masses are getting poorer because the ultra rich are getting richer. It's a wealth transfer and the sooner people realise it the sooner we can get people coordinated and united. At the moment we have the complete opposite.

Conservatives, lib dems and Labour do share common ground and it's important that our politicians realise that a consensus must be made when it's in all our best interests. What Farage is doing is driving division to bring in something that actually isn't in anyone's interests apart from a very few