Starmer Must Go

[BisiBodi]

I made a lengthy post yesterday (on this thread: www.mumsnet.com/talk/politics/5333405-changes-to-immigration-rules-announced-by-starmer?page=2 @ 17:43 if you want to read it) regarding the horrendous "island of strangers" speech by Starmer
Today, Kier Starmer has decided to say that immigration has done "incalculable damage" to the country. My despair and fury over this, and the general direction of labour, warrants its own thread.

Starmer claimed in writing that immigrants have put too much pressure on housing and public services (they don't, and he previously said they don't). He added that the immigration system is “almost designed to permit abuse” and that it risks “pulling the country apart”. He said that he wanted to close a “squalid chapter” in our country’s history (of too much immigration in the last few years), and then he seemed to quote the Rivers of Blood speech and said that without significantly reducing immigration the UK risks becoming “an island of strangers".

He's doing this because he's proposing new laws to make immigration harder and bring net migration down (except they definitely won't). Stuff like increasing it to 10 years before you can apply for indefinite leave to remain (10 years!!), introducing English language tests (in a post that suggests Welsh doesn't exist), reducing social care visas (the system would collapse in a day), being tougher on overseas students and reducing the time they can stay after graduation (if you reduce their numbers at all then Universities will be bankrupt immediately), new ID cards, reduce (oh sorry, "clarify") the amount ECHR article 8 can be used to justify people staying on human rights grounds, etc.

When someone pointed out that high migration helps economies and low hurts them, and that this is true in the EU right now and all over the world, Starmer didn't think so. He said that immigration has been high in the UK but the economy has been stagnant, so there can't be any link. Yes Keir, but the economy was stagnant during A PANDEMIC AND ENERGY CRISIS AND COST OF LIVING CRISIS AND EXPENSIVE NEW WARS AND GLOBAL MARKET TRUMP TURMOIL. If the immigrants hadn't kept us level, your "stagnant" economy would have plummeted like a rock. You cannot possibly be presenting that as X=Y in a total vacuum.

This kind of xenophobia doesn't need explaining, but it's worth saying why it won't work and will lose Labour a lot of votes:

• Conservative and Reform voters do NOT change their vote to Labour ever, so this pandering is worthless. But Labour can lose votes to the Greens and LDs at a high rate. Nearly ALL the Reform votes come from former Conservatives.
• Public concern about immigration is low and goes up and down exactly with how much the press is currently going on about it (see the graph) so is not worth alienating your voter base about
• And it is alienating voters, because you've heard this kind of rhetoric before but it was from the actual NF and BNP
• The Mail's headline today was still attacking Labour because it is impossible to ever go far enough for them, or for Reform voters. Nothing is ever enough.

So, Labour saying "Reform are right actually" won't bring a single voter over to Labour, but it sure will lose you a few. Or, er, a lot. People are resigning their Labour membership and sounding furious. I haven't seen a single event trigger this much outrage from the public (and Labour MPs) in quite a while. Starmer has hugely damaged himself. Germany's far-right AfD are praising him, that's the level it's at.

I already left for the Greens, but today has me going even further. I think it's now worth the potential chaos to get rid of Starmer's version of Labour. In a timely article today, Nesrine Malik called our current elections "hostage politics". You MUST vote Labour or the Tories will get in. Now you MUST vote Labour or Reform will get in.

I don't respond well to threats. Never have. I tend to escalate. And I'm bored of their crap: more cuts, keeping first-past-the-post even though Labour members want PR, refusing to talk about rejoining the EU even though Labour members (and the majority of the country) want full rejoin, this xenophobic shit which goes against everything Starmer said about immigration when he was running for leader (but then he's broken every pledge from that time), the anti-trans bollocks, coming for the disabled PIP and saying all benefits are too high and that people are taking advantage of handouts and all the rest.

Fuck these guys. There's pragmatic politics where you compromise, and then there's this literal far-right shit that means you personally HAVE to be comfortable with saying it in public. It's about the soul of the PM and the party. Today is way over the line of sensible cross-party anything.

And I'm done with hostage politics. What, so we keep Labour in for 8 more years of... this? Of the same or more cuts? I'm rapidly approaching the point where smashing this Labour party so that they never try to be centre- / far-right again would do more good than the short-term harm.

Voters didn't show unwavering support for Labour at the last election, they showed that they will be extremely flexible and vote for whoever can win in their area. If Labour become unpopular in the polls, that will be someone else and not them. Labour's lead is incredibly fragile and changeable and today's performance is EXACTLY how they lose it and deserve to lose it. Yes, some young men went to Reform before the election... and twice as many young women went to the Greens. Labour's share fell 21% in 18-24 year olds. You cannot gain a single Reform vote by going right. It will never be far-right enough.
Saying that Reform are correct and using their rhetoric in speeches and changing your policies to theirs is NOT how you defeat them, or run a country.

Replace Starmer, quickly. At the very least.

And so what is the purpose of this thread, other than to vent into an online echo-chamber? I think it's a request to a call to action. It's a call out to everyone who currently resides - whether you like it or not - in a Labour controlled constituency and has a labour MP.

You can easily find out the details, together with links to their speeches and/or voting records, from service such as They Work For You.
Check the details of your MP, and especially their stance on immigration and other matters important to you, then email them.

Not really. Ever increasing numbers of jobs/professions now require a degree. So going to Uni is often just something today's youngsters have to do to get a decent job. Many have no actual interest, they're just going through the motions.

That’s your view. However, pretending that Nigel Farage is the boogeyman for the next four years is not credible and it certainly won’t get us any money. Isn’t growing the economy a good idea?

My view is that the free market of ideas is only something that the Tory Party like when they are winning. What is the point of them if they aren’t pro business? They are just a Farage echo. He will do that better himself.

Fair point. Starmer is muddled on whether to be pro immigration or not. He’s panicking after the local election results and a week later this.

If the economy improves, Labour can offer sweeteners to the Red Wall closer to election time, because once the coffers are fuller, there is more room to do that. The strategy was take everything away and piss off absolutely everyone, then do some deals, improve the economy, and if there is room, there will be bribery down the line.

Farage, Mr Brexit who couldn't even be bothered to attend 41 of the 42 meetings when he was a member of the European Parliament fisheries committee?

They have lost majority of red wall. See Durham etc. Too late.
We all know money rolls slowly out of London so by time any reaches the North it will be too little too late

That doesn't matter to his voters

And those degrees are cultural and academic enrichment.

They're not the ones voting Remain!

Not his core voters, no.

The Red Wall don't want "Sweeteners" - they want the same kind of job opportunities, public services, public transport, etc that Londoners benefit from and don't want to live in rubbish strewn third World towns populated by money launderings and with rampant low level crime. They want their self respect back. That's what Boris promised them, not "sweeteners". All these areas think they got under the EU were superficial sweeteners like artwork in the middle of roundabouts! Whether such people are right or wrong, that's their perception. They don't want "sweeteners" akin to charity, they want jobs and better services.

Unfortunately cultural and academic enrichment doesn’t produce much in the way of growth that benefits those who need it the most.

I think there’s also blame to be apportioned to politicians of all colours. Wanting hs2 to go to London? Why? The connections north of Birmingham needed to be much stronger with each other. Railways were already quite quick to London. The politicians wanted to get to London. Others wanted to get from Liverpool to Manchester!

The strong university in Durham isn’t stopping Reform! No doubt ex mining communities have more influence.

In the 21st century though, you make your own job opportunities by finding a niche. You do not expect someone else to provide you with a job.

Strong university? You mean the one cutting up to one third of staff in some departments? Increasingly full of overseas students who don't get a vote anyway?

FYI the North doesn't stop at Manchestsr and transport links are frankly shit north of Scotch Corner

There are lots of professions that you can't get into without a job due to "On the job training", requirements for having an employer to sign off your work experience records, etc.

Blair's 50% aim for kids to Uni and lazy employers using a degree as a minimum entry requirement have really screwed things up and cause huge numbers of young people having to go to Uni who aren't remotely interested in cultural nor academic enrichment. They just want that piece of paper so they can get a job or entry into their chosen profession.

Many are now just exam factories.

Pretty crap South of Scotch Corner too if you're relying on trains along the trans Pennine corridor, using Northern trains or TPX trains who are notoriously unreliable and expensive!

There are also way more online opportunities. So for the entrepreneurial minded youngster there can be a lot out there with far more flexibility.

A Boris promise is not worth the paper it was written on

He lied.

Many feel similarly re Starmer. You can see it in polls and feedback groups.

Indeed, he did, but my point was that he knew how to relate to the voters he wanted to attract. Just like Farage.

Starmer doesn't "relate" to anyone as he's such a cold-fish.

The next prime minister WILL be someone who knows how to attract the ever increasing number of "homeless" voters who are currently disenfranchised with the main parties.

Starmer may well be doing some good, but it's a bit like wetting yourself in dark trousers - you'll get a warm feeling but no one will notice - that's Starmer all over. He hasn't the charisma nor charm to actually get voters to warm to him. A bit like Brown in that respect who likewise had no personality.

Rightly or wrongly, voters like people with personality, hence Blair, Cameron, Clegg and Boris. And why the likes of Brown, May, Sunak, Major, etc never won elections!

Okay. But Starmer did win an election. Quite well.

It may be that the “Red Wall” never come back to Labour. But the hysteria about this deal is absurd. All the latest polling is that a good majority of us want a better relationship with the EU. Reform and some Tory supporters do not. But they are a minority.

Starmer received a soft Conservative vote in areas of the country at the last election. He is not a tribal Labour man. Would he go to the next election in the same way? Yes, imo.

‘Reform do not.’ ‘But they are a minority’.

They’re not a minority anymore. They’re leading in pretty much all polls.

He’s no longer liked for going wherever the wind blows. His popularity was higher last GE. Now many do loathe him.

Well I’m a wishy washy Conservative and Starmer will never get my vote. You keep saying this is because of poor ‘comms’ and right wing media. But I can hear and see his behaviour on PMQs every week. A slippery character who never answers a question. And as for his attitude towards women… Farage is a complete narcissist so not him either.

I also think forget about the Red Wall voters.
The more interesting question is the young voters. And Reform are plugged into the social media somehow. And that is where Labour need to make strides.
Youth mobility is good for the young. My DC are happy about it, they are not anti immigration, they want opportunity and flexibility and they are all voting in the next election (bar the youngest).

Labour need far more on TikTok, YouTube etc and whatever will be the newest platform in a few years and they need a lot more youngsters caring about politics and their futures and actually campaigning and having some influence over their own future. That includes climate change, job opportunities etc and not being dictated to by Make Britain Great again types who are bitter and past it.