Rise of fascism... what, if anything, can decent people do?

[MrsBennetsPoorNerves]

Trump's victory is obviously alarming for many of us, but we've seen the rise of the far right in lots of places across Europe to a greater or lesser extent as well. History teaches us that bad things happen when decent people stand by and do nothing . So what, if anything, should those of us who are concerned about the rise of fascism be doing now?

Please note: if you're a Trump fan and don't agree that he is a fascist, this is not the thread to debate that. There are plenty of other threads where we can discuss that point, but this one is aimed at those who already accept that premise. Obviously, I can't stop you posting here, as it's an open forum and I don't get to police it, but I won't be engaging with any posts from Trump apologists on this thread because I don't want irrelevant debate to derail the main discussion.

One term. You can see it coming a mile off

Well I have volunteered at these events and yes, some are simple and by that I mean they did not pass GCSEs and have very basic numeracy and literacy skills and certainly do not have the ability to analyse bias via media very much nor understand complex data and how it can be represented in different ways to suit an agenda. Nor do they have significant geographical or historical or current affairs knowledge. Many are suspicious of other cultures, religions, foods etc that is why good food is such a good icebreaker.

but I won't be engaging with any posts from Trump apologists

Its not being a Trump apologist to say Trump is not a fascist. He just isn't a fascist.

He won in a fair election in a developed democracy, where everyone followed the rules and there was no voter intimidation. In fact, interestingly the fact the polls got it so wrong about it being close between Harris and Trump would seem to be because Trump voters were too intimidated to tell pollsters how they were really feeling, because democratic voters call them fascists and thick if they do. So the nearest there was to voter intimidation came from the Democrats.

I don’t think Trump is a fascist, but I do think he is a greedy power hungry opportunist. I also do not even think he anti women, he just wants America to have more babies to pay for the ageing demographic. He is a typical market capitalist in many ways and he is using his previous media popularity just like Boris Johnson did. People know Trump, they feel he is a known quantity and they would rather trust him than the Democrats who they believe fall for any woke fad going. It is quite simple, they want Trump to turn around the economy and make America Great again. At least that is the case for the more normal middle America. They don’t trust the Democrats.

I agree. But anyway...

The best way to combat the far right is to stop having echo chambers like this where you deliberately only speak to people who think like you,, and start listening to people you don't agree with and start addressing their concerns.

That's the way to get people to vote for more moderate, centrist candidates. Get those parties to listen to people and address their concerns.

The theory is not rocket science. The implementation is harder as some seem to gain psychological satisfaction from calling people racists and idiots and fascists, and these people are the barrier.

It is quite simple, they want Trump to turn around the economy and make America Great again.

I thought the US economy was in good shape ? when people talk about the economy I think what they usually mean is their own income and how comfortable they feel ?

I personally think it's absolutely critical to align job generation with the green / renewable energy agenda via massive public investment. Though their government is obviously not a democracy and is deplorable in many ways, this is what China is doing, more effectively I believe than any other nation in the world. Liberal democracies can look to autocratic regimes to learn something about survival and popularity and also future planning (without themselves resorting to autocracy!)

We need jobs, and we also need people to view addressing / preventing climate change as something positive that can generate wealth for ordinary people.

The Chinese economy is faltering, which is why Trumps tariff threat will be successful.

Their demography is a major problem. Which also foreshadows what is going to happen in the West.

There is a lot of poverty, crime, drug addiction is massive and food prices are extortionate in the US and obviously healthcare is really worryingly expensive. But yes, overall economy is doing better. The Chinese economy needs to recover so that we all benefit. I think Trump is just threatening the Chinese so that he can maintain global power, he wants the Chinese to play ball. The US can screw their recovery.
This is all one big international post Covid power struggle between the great super powers and their complex allegiances and who is top dog.
People who hate Trump don’t understand that he may be able to manage the Chinese, Iran, Putin etc better than the Democrats who want to please everyone somehow.

That's not strictly true. It's the unequal division of income, wealth & opportunity that leads to social conflict.
https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsif.2021.0725?origin=serp_auto

The far right in the UK have mobilised in opposition to; Jews fleeing the Nazis, Ugandan Asians fleeing Idi Amin, the Windrush generation etc.

Immigration isn't the cause of inequality, dumping immigrants in places without resources/infrastructure certainly exacerbates our problems, but that's a problem of management not immigration.

You can't appease these people.

I concur.

He will serve one term, but i think he will improve the US economy and the Republicans will get in again. If the Democrats stick with KH they have no chance.

Look OP, I have cut and paste from a post I put elsewhere. This is why Trump won.

Exit polls of voters showed over 70% of them were dissatisfied or very angry the state of America. They were also very unhappy with Biden. Two separate commentators looked at this and said they didn't see how Harris could win, given this. The only way she could have won was if she distanced herself from Biden, but in her campaign she explicitly did the opposite, repeatedly saying she could not think of anything she would do differently.
So she presented herself as the continuity candidate at a time people were deeply unhappy with the status quo and desperate for change
Politicians need to know the mood of the country and she misread it and Trump didn't

There is no mystery to why Trump won and there is no scary back story to it. Its quite a simple, well worn tale. Trump spoke to the concerns people actually had ( cost of living, immigration), he was is positive about his voters, he tells them they are great and good people and together they can improve things.

Harris did not understand what people's concerns were, did not speak to them but instead promised more of the same, spoke in vague platitudes and the issues she did focus on were secondary concerns for most voters (abortion). Insulting and patronising the people she needed to persuade to vote for her and using lots of celebrity endorsement at time when people were feeling poor probably did not help.

Trump's victory is not about the rise of fascism. Its a much more mundane tale of one candidate reading the mood of voters, and one candidate failing to do that and running a badly misjudged campaign. Its nothing more than that.

We were talking about Starmer -
happily serving only one term.

Great post and cuts through the hysteria nicely.

Aha! Yes hopefully. Although KB will probably have to step down after a couple of years to make room for Cleverly.

I have been pondering all of this myself.
I have come to the unpleasant conclusion that the majority of people are generally only concerned with themselves and it is the minority who are concerned about others.
Rather like how the majority of men are selfish, sexist and prone to aggression with a minority who are kind and decent who truly view women as equal.
Therefore many voters are easily persuaded by xenophobic nationalism, to scapegoat anyone who is different, to think only in terms of themselves and their pocket.
Many people are not politically engaged or have the time or inclination to research the policies of those they vote for beyond soundbites.
When times are financially tough people are even more likely to look for a simple explanation for a complex problem.
Politicians seeking power manipulate this with groups of people to whom they can assign blame for the country’s financial woes. Blame immigrants, foreign aid, disabled people, women with cats, women wanting equal pay, children with learning difficulties etc etc.
Politicians don’t tend to be as forthcoming about the financial policies, world events, their governments actions which will have led to the financial crisis and being complex it does not fit the short attention span and sensationalist style the media adopts to communicate with the public.
Education also plays a part and whilst I would not make a sweeping statement that extreme right wing views are confined to people of lesser intelligence at all there is certainly a link between educational access and achievement and facism at a grassroots level.
What can we do about it?
If I knew that I would be doing it now.
All I can do is chip away by challenging the horrible things I see and hear, help anybody who is a victim of this hateful mean minded situation and hope that we aren’t heading for war.

Migration, gender, Climate Change.
Many people here in UK and in USA are fed up with the LEFT telling us that we need to comply with their choices:
We must accept foreign people even if they are criminals and even if they commit crimes here. NO we are fed up with it. These migrants should go back and work at putting their own countries right, not running away. Ask the French about their Revolution. All over Europe we made our governments and monarchs change things to make our lives better.
Gender: Just accept there are 2 Sexes that cannot change or be changed.
Climate change is happening but it is not a dire emergency. Why should I have to make expensive changes while China is still building new coal fired power stations?
Those three reasons are why people are drifting a little to the Right. The Left won't listen nor will they help us. My MP seems more interested in the people Thousands of miles away not our village who voted for him or the tax-payers that finance him.
Reform next time? Possibly

I think they're related concepts though aren't they. Proto-autocrats, proto-fascists are often (always?) populists like Trump. Trump is a narcissist and that's directly related to his populism. Populism is essentially bourne out of a willingness and ability to lie. They tell people what they want to hear. I don't believe Trump really thinks his voters are great and good people, I think he sees them as chumps. But his narcissism is the very reason for his success - lying and grandiosity comes so naturally to him it actually reads for many as a kind of authenticity. And as he doesn't appear to have values, he can't judge anyone for not sharing them.

Whereas when Kamala Harris talks about "we need to come together" etc people see through it (not helped by her contradictory statements at other rallies eg "this isn't the place for you"). She's not adequately able to conceal her contempt for many Trump voters - and to be fair it's a difficult ask. I would find it hard to conceal / overcome my anger toward people who think less of me because of my race or sex or seem not to share my core values. It requires a lot of resilience and empathy to see "the other side".

Do those who wish to maintain liberal democracy need to get better at lying and flattery essentially??? I completely agree with your insightful analysis of the flawed Harris campaign.

The one thing I would say is that there's a lot of talk here about the "left" but IMO neither Labour and certainly not the Democrats in the US really represent left wing socialism, or anything remotely radical. They're basically the centrist status quo, and if anything they are drifting toward the right to try to steal right wing voters. I think that's the wrong direction, both ideologically but also in terms of electability. Wasn't it said that Bernie Sanders would have beaten Trump had the Democrats allowed him to run?*

*Eg the very same people voting right wing Trump would have voted left wing Sanders, because what they're really tired of is the status quo, feeling hopeless, feeling powerless as though they cannot change or improve their own lives.

“I have come to the unpleasant conclusion that the majority of people are generally only concerned with themselves and it is the minority who are concerned about others.”

@Mittens67 - people care about their communities and wider family, if they have one. So the only solution is to build strong communities. If you foster an individualistic society and micro family unit and you alienate people from each other due to eg Covid and capitalism, of course that is the result. There used to be huge communities in work places even, now it is all temporary.

You cannot expect people to look out of each other if you don’t build communities and you stoke division. This is another reason why I appalled at today’s flavour of the Labour Party. We need unity and positivity, not the opposite.

You make a good point.

Harris did get those things wrong, and Trump addressed policy on those concerns

Trump most certainly is a facist, but he’s nothing compared to Vance and the tech bros who are coming after him.

And yet we won't know what the OP's definition is because she won't say.
So your definition could be completely wrong as far as she is concerned.

I sometimes fear that
people think that fascism arrives in fancy dress
worn by grotesques and monsters
as played out in endless re-runs of the Nazis.
Fascism arrives as your friend.
It will restore your honour,
make you feel proud,
protect your house,
give you a job,
clean up the neighbourhood,
remind you of how great you once were,
clear out the venal and the corrupt,
remove anything you feel is unlike you…
It doesn’t walk in saying,
“Our programme means militias, mass imprisonments, transportations, war and persecution.”