Rise of fascism... what, if anything, can decent people do?

[MrsBennetsPoorNerves]

Trump's victory is obviously alarming for many of us, but we've seen the rise of the far right in lots of places across Europe to a greater or lesser extent as well. History teaches us that bad things happen when decent people stand by and do nothing . So what, if anything, should those of us who are concerned about the rise of fascism be doing now?

Please note: if you're a Trump fan and don't agree that he is a fascist, this is not the thread to debate that. There are plenty of other threads where we can discuss that point, but this one is aimed at those who already accept that premise. Obviously, I can't stop you posting here, as it's an open forum and I don't get to police it, but I won't be engaging with any posts from Trump apologists on this thread because I don't want irrelevant debate to derail the main discussion.

And by not doing that, we have posters equating people worried about IHT with fascists.

The irony.

Conflict only arise when there's a scarcity in resources. Until we tackle the issue of migration (I say this as a brown person), the far right will continue to increase their share of supporters/voters.

Trump has said he will impose tariffs on Mexican goods unless Mexico tackles illegal migration. This seems like a simple and effective idea that will cut illegal migration and not cost North America a penny. It's easy to understand and makes sense.

And yes, I am putting it here, because if you genuinely want to understand the rise of the right - which is what I presume you mean by 'fascists', like Rik from the Young Ones - then you need to understand what everyday working people have concerns about.

Some really good points made here.

To expand if I may. Globalisation has also impacted almost every country especially in the west, where we see the corrosion of traditions, values and culture. This is wide spread across the world, and the inevitable consequences. Even considering something simple like jeans, seen on every living person across the globe signifies a loss of creativity and traditional dress in favour of them. If we see this at every level of our society - SM, TV, film, music, dress, values etc etc if can create disenfranchisement from within. The loss of so much history and heritage - of meaning.

Wr combine that with a sense that no one really matters, because respecting individuality and contribution has been lost, anyone and everyone is replaceable.
Small communities that were once close and friendly, with a sense of belonging and pride.

The rise of ISIS is the most visible form of anger against globalisation and the loss of a millennia of culture and tradition (in their view) Ideology that hardens when feels threatened.

What are the solutions? I imagine a return to smaller communities that are represented by their own people (and not MPs shipped in from elsewhere) that tackle local issues head on.

A meaningful life that is not measured by wealth but by well being and contribution. The consumerism might work for big business, but it’s not conducive for human well being.

A celebration of traditional culture and a return to our roots. Dare I say it - some kind of spiritual practice that offers daily support and connection. For communities to work together again.

For daily mediation and exercise as communities in parks across the ages and time in nature as a given and not a luxury. Especially for children, they are taught in the curriculum how to maintain good mental health.
To slow down and become aware of ourselves.

For those that have been hurt or harmed to have immediate access to support.

Better life/work balance, so the workforce is not exhausted and miserable. That could mean a 4 day week.

The fact is that scarcity of resources will only get worse in the future. Climate change is already having a massive impact in places like the middle east and Africa. Soon there may be wars over water, over food. There will most definitely be an increase in refugees from these areas. My DH is a climate change professor and this is his area of expertise. In the coming decades those who live in cooler climates, such as Northern Europe and north America will have to come up with a plan on how to deal with the massive increase in refugees.

I can see the tariff part

There was a good piece on BBC WS from an historian focusing on the era who talked about the term fascist and summed up with it’s now divorced from the initial meaning

On what to do listening to Harris’ speech quotes this morning it’s not talking Oprah style about billions of stars

There needs to be a more realistic conversation about mass people movement

Liberal democracies can protect themselves by ensuring everyone (and most especially unskilled men) has a good job and that meaningful work pays

Totally agree and yet you have people on the left on other threads saying we don't need manufacturing, all we need is doctors and teachers and dentists - arguably elite jobs that require years of self funded study.

Yes I think the 'stars' thing was cringe and back fired.

They were both terrible candidates let's face it.

I think we have to listen and tackle the issues people are concerned about in a way that is not so authoritarian and one party rule.

So first we need to make sure we uphold pur constitutions/laws /democratic processes and ensure leaders do too. We should have better education on this and be proud of checks and balances and how important these systems are. That was why some of Boris disrespect for proper process was dangerous.
We rhen need to support that process in other democracies.

We need to work out immigration and I agree this is an issue that as resources get scares, tensions rise. So we need to listen to those with scarce resources most.

Some resources are artificially scarce by poor planning and policy. So we need to ensure jobs right across the country, the right type of housing, ensure education prepares people for the work available, ensure heathcare can be got.

Some other resources are actually scarce. Food, energy and water need prioriting and planning for.

Something needs to coordinate how the habitable bits of the world will respond to the expected 1.2billion people that climate change will displace.

We need to be able to discuss multiculturalism both its benefits but very real fears that people have around Islam. I dont want to drag the thread into islamaphobia. But it's no point pretending people aren't frightened by social media and the press suggesting that there are boat loads of trained soldiers arriving to take over and that there are gangs grooming children., that there are movement to impose sharia. It might be easy and say nonsense but then you need to think why do they feel that, what are we doing to make them feel safer.

The Labour Party has a genuine opportunity to do something with their huge majority in the commons, so I hope that they don't squander it.

Depends on what your definition of squander is really. The badly thought out farm inheritance tax aside, the budget was absolutely amazing.

Beyond the big headline figures picked up on in the press, the amount of additional money being ploughed into local services will make a huge difference. The confirmation that this is a stabilising budget and that there will be a return to three year spending reviews for the public sector will be a game changer which will enable rapid improvement.

The Tories, in opposition, will lean even further into populism and use the right wing dominating media to their advantage - which we know they are very good at.

The left really need to get behind the government and stop whinging about every little thing that isn't left wing enough for them / is too left wing otherwise that majority will disappear very quickly.

They are there to govern the whole country and do what is best for everyone, not just pander to the left and that means pragmatism and compromise - neither of which are a dirty word and both of which can be done aligned with key left wing principals.

OP - you said in an earlier I'm not really sure how effective a strategy of listening and engaging actually is. I used to think that was important but I am gradually coming to the view that it doesn't make much of a difference. People who are sucked into the far right ideology don't generally seem interested in engaging in genuine debate, and if you listen uncritically, there is a danger that you just end up unintentionally seeming to validate their extreme views.

Listening and engaging is not the same as engaging in debate. Listening means understanding why people feel the way they do, empathising and figuring out what policies need to be implemented to help address whatever issues they have. It doesn't mean engaging in some navel gazing debate about the rights and wrongs of certain positions.

"OK - I hear you are worried about the number of immigrants - why is that?" What you will get is a reply which indicates concerns about housing, health, education and child safeguarding. It may be tied up in language you find distasteful but that's the nub of it. Instead of then lecturing them about why they are wrong, you ask them how, apart from closing the borders, that these things can be addressed in their view. That then forms policy. Telling people they are wrong outright will only ever make them more entrenched within their positions.

I agree that the rise of the far right is worrying and that fascists will always vote for Trump and the like it is really important to recognise that not everyone who votes for the likes of Trump is far right or a fascist - they are mostly just people who are struggling and the far right makes them feel listened to.

It's not about the left 'stopping' the far right - because they can't when the right wing are in power. It's about the left reflecting on why their message is not breaking through and how they can listen and speak to people in a way which addresses their concerns rather than coming across as detached and elitist and recognising that it is about finding common ground in key areas, not necessarily agreeing on everything!

Yes, exaggerated situations or meaning not on the left camp and not wanting open borders and free for all. That is facist these days. Be careful because alienating people further is more dangerous. The vote is personal and private so start by analysing what things you support that may be a bit crazy for a western society. I for example do not mind Trump is in but I am not a racist or wanting all migrants to go. However, I want to deter criminals so open borders are not good for me. I also want a good economy so hard workers migrants are welcome. It is not black or white.

I am concerned about what will happen in the German elections and I am concerned about Ukraine.

If you look at history, when people get poorer and dissatisfied post a big event like a war or Covid, fascism or a revolution is more likely to happen. The Russian revolution happened because people were hungry in Petersburg. Similar happened with Hitler getting into power initially. Similar happened with Putin’s trajectory.

We cannot isolate other nations going through it. We have to keep dialogue open without it infiltrating us.

Also, do not open statements saying you are the decent camp. How do you dare to insult people like that I have not sympathy for you and your rant.

I think many people who got poorer feel
it’s OK to blame minorities because the left woke agenda went too far on promoting minority rights. So it’s important to listen.

This new government we have is going all fascist on private school kids so it’s not like we don’t have that amongst our midst either. The Tories went fascist on small boats. So we need the international human rights act to be respected.

'Decent people"

Absolute and utterly cringe. I'm embarrassed for you @MrsBennetsPoorNerves

I agree and wrote the same yesterday. Funny how you assumed it was a partisan point.

Engage and listen. Don’t just write off people who voted for someone you dislike as facists. We should have learned this lesson from Brexit. Branding everyone who voted for it as “thick and racist” rather than actually listening to their concerns. I say this as someone who voted Remain and fell into the same trap, ended up having arguments with my family and colleagues, for what. The most extreme political movements currently seek to cultivate division amongst everyone, you can either be one side or the other, and must be pitted against each other. Social media and legacy media are fuelling this because it gets clicks. It’s no coincidence that the free newspaper websites (the Guardian and the Mail) are the most partisan.
I am no Trump fan, but I think in this case the majority of American voters voted for change, and could connect meaningful with Trump on at least one issue. Celebrity endorsement in a time of deep financial insecurity for many people is not only tone deaf to the people who aren’t seduced by it, it’s patronising to the people who the Democrats believe will be swayed to change their vote because their favourite pop star told them to. I’m afraid as soon as I saw this happening, I knew the Democrats were going to lose.

Celebrity endorsement in a time of deep financial insecurity for many people is not only tone deaf to the people who aren’t seduced by it, it’s patronising to the people who the Democrats believe will be swayed to change their vote because their favourite pop star told them to. I’m afraid as soon as I saw this happening, I knew the Democrats were going to lose

Also - "joy" and "vibes"

I completely agree @SinisterBumFacedCat - I have signed up to the Telegraph on a free trial to start to understand the thinking there. And this morning, big article from Nigel Farage who is currently in the US. We need to understand and respect the opposition or there is no chance to stand up to it. There is a massive anti current system sentiment going on. People are losing their local communities, people turned on each other during Covid, churches and places for all to congregate are gone, people just need a local community and a bit more money, good services and less worry re housing.
So the economy and more power locally is the answer as well as community groups and bringing different communities together across race, religion etc. The best thing you can do with racists is get them to make friends with minorities, bring them together to cook, share traditions etc. Most simple people once they actually know someone else they will make friends.

Change is an interesting concept isn't it, Trump got voted in because people wanted change, Starmer got voted in because people wanted change ?

Both have four years to make that 'change' translate into better living conditions for their populations. Be interesting to see how each of them does on that front.

People were very fed up with Covid so they go for change at all cost. It is not that difficult to understand. Also the post Covid hyper inflation and debt, it is all
entirely predictable.
I think as a country here secure housing is our biggest priority. Food prices are much more than they were pre Covid, but internationally speaking they are good. And what does Reeves do? Go and potentially attack our own food security via farmers. You have to wonder what their thinking is! Surely if we want to and need to go green long term and have some self sufficiency due to climate change, the last thing you do is attack farmers and the energy sector. It is complete madness. So Labour, in my mind, are so far even worse than what we got from the Tories. I do not like either of them. There is no long term thinking going on, just fire fighting with no foresight and no plan. Nobody seems to have the long term interest of the country in mind, just the party and point scoring against the opposition. It really annoys me.

Lol. Honestly some posters craic me up. Need to listen followed immediately by stating they are simple and racist.

Stärmer will be one term.

@Bonnyrowantree - our local churches are running this programme where the Anglican and Catholic priests meet with Muslim leaders and invite people on benefits, homeless people, refugees, emigrants (rich and poor including Hong Kong, Ukraine, Afghanis etc etc) local rich benefactors and everyone to mingle and it is working. And then fundraisers for each other. Why be so dismissive?

Everyone has trauma and a complex story. That seems to include Elon Musk and his own tiff with his transgender child.

Nobody knows if Starmer and Labour will be one term. People seem to be voting for the least worst option! @Bonnyrowantree Starmer has a lot of time to work things out. Of course they were going to be inexperienced. Politics in the social media age is a completely different game.

I wasn't being dismissive. That actually possibly sounds like a good thing. I was pointing out that you said you were trying to understand, but then went on to state they are sll racist and simple. You want to understand so you can "reedu ate"