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Politics

Rise of fascism... what, if anything, can decent people do?

499 replies

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 06/11/2024 21:32

Trump's victory is obviously alarming for many of us, but we've seen the rise of the far right in lots of places across Europe to a greater or lesser extent as well. History teaches us that bad things happen when decent people stand by and do nothing . So what, if anything, should those of us who are concerned about the rise of fascism be doing now?

Please note: if you're a Trump fan and don't agree that he is a fascist, this is not the thread to debate that. There are plenty of other threads where we can discuss that point, but this one is aimed at those who already accept that premise. Obviously, I can't stop you posting here, as it's an open forum and I don't get to police it, but I won't be engaging with any posts from Trump apologists on this thread because I don't want irrelevant debate to derail the main discussion.

OP posts:
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Araminta1003 · 07/11/2024 11:07

I am not scared of the Tories, nor should anyone else be. Who I fear is Farage and Boris Johnson coming up with their own version of Trumpism.

ItsFunToBeAVampire · 07/11/2024 11:09

The Democrats also made a giant error when they lied about how fit Biden was to be president.
Anyone with eyes and ears could see he wasn't up to it but the party and a vast majority of its loudest members ignored that until it couldn't be ignored anymore.

Why would voters trust them on anything else if they lie to their faces about something so obvious? (See also the gender woo that they're so enthusiastic about.)
People don't like to be taken for fools.

FrippEnos · 07/11/2024 11:27

Araminta1003 · 07/11/2024 11:05

I sometimes fear that
people think that fascism arrives in fancy dress
worn by grotesques and monsters
as played out in endless re-runs of the Nazis.
Fascism arrives as your friend.
It will restore your honour,
make you feel proud,
protect your house,
give you a job,
clean up the neighbourhood,
remind you of how great you once were,
clear out the venal and the corrupt,
remove anything you feel is unlike you…
It doesn’t walk in saying,
“Our programme means militias, mass imprisonments, transportations, war and persecution.”

And the way to get people to see that is to have a full and open discussion with them.

And not as has been done since brexit, Calling any one that disagrees with your views a thick, racist, idiot but for some reason some people don't seem to understand this.

WhatWouldJeevesDo · 07/11/2024 11:50

Engage with others in a good cause
iandunt.substack.com/p/scattered-thoughts-on-the-worst-of?utm_campaign=posts-open-in-app&triedRedirect=true

ImustLearn2Cook · 07/11/2024 12:02

Rise of fascism... what, if anything, can decent people do?

If by fascism you mean the type of groups that exalt nation or race above the individual with autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader who uses force to suppress opposition then I do have a few thoughts on what those of us who are pro democracy and against fascism could do in order to turn the tide away from fascism.

Fascism is authoritarian. One thing that we all have in common is that we are born with our unique personalities and temperaments (nature) and we are all shaped by our environment (nurture). Consider our education system and the how most schools operate. They tend to be rather authoritarian. Not all schools are. Some schools have the philosophy of democratic education where students have more freedom, they have a say in their education (self directed learning), and they learn the principles of democracy through practice.

If our schools and education departments continue to operate as an autocracy, with authoritarianism, with such rigid, unbending, uncompromising, inflexible rules that suppress individuality then why wouldn’t the products of this type of environment be attracted to fascism?

If we value democracy, autonomy, individual freedoms, social cohesion, then we need to start in the formative years. Advocate for democratic education.

fridaynight1 · 07/11/2024 12:06

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 06/11/2024 21:56

Thanks @PerkingFaintly. I think it's very evident that people will try to shut down the discussion but I intend to ignore those posts as it will just derail the thread otherwise.

Oh the irony.

PollyPeachum · 07/11/2024 12:11

I did answer the part of the thread about why it happened in my earlier post. That does not make people who rebel against the Left Fascist, just a little bit to the right.
The OP also asked what can be done? Keep on at your MPs and Councillors to stay fixed on what they have been elected for. Their job is to make policies that give you and the people around you as peaceful and easy and as comfortable life as possible. Yes their job their priority, it might be in Norfolk or Birmingham or Aberdeen or Derry or Cardiff. Not spending their time stressing about Gaza or down town Tehran when they should be checking on school buildings that have a 30 year life and were built 30 years ago and the Council did not allocate money for maintenance.

If we have time to campaign or contribute money then we will do so via charities. There are plenty of them,

ThePerkyDuck · 07/11/2024 12:23

@ImustLearn2Cook
what is a democratic education that you are referring to?
I think what needs to be introduced in schools is definitely a critical thinking class.

Outandinbout · 07/11/2024 12:39

Ghouella · 07/11/2024 10:47

I think they're related concepts though aren't they. Proto-autocrats, proto-fascists are often (always?) populists like Trump. Trump is a narcissist and that's directly related to his populism. Populism is essentially bourne out of a willingness and ability to lie. They tell people what they want to hear. I don't believe Trump really thinks his voters are great and good people, I think he sees them as chumps. But his narcissism is the very reason for his success - lying and grandiosity comes so naturally to him it actually reads for many as a kind of authenticity. And as he doesn't appear to have values, he can't judge anyone for not sharing them.

Whereas when Kamala Harris talks about "we need to come together" etc people see through it (not helped by her contradictory statements at other rallies eg "this isn't the place for you"). She's not adequately able to conceal her contempt for many Trump voters - and to be fair it's a difficult ask. I would find it hard to conceal / overcome my anger toward people who think less of me because of my race or sex or seem not to share my core values. It requires a lot of resilience and empathy to see "the other side".

Do those who wish to maintain liberal democracy need to get better at lying and flattery essentially??? I completely agree with your insightful analysis of the flawed Harris campaign.

The one thing I would say is that there's a lot of talk here about the "left" but IMO neither Labour and certainly not the Democrats in the US really represent left wing socialism, or anything remotely radical. They're basically the centrist status quo, and if anything they are drifting toward the right to try to steal right wing voters. I think that's the wrong direction, both ideologically but also in terms of electability. Wasn't it said that Bernie Sanders would have beaten Trump had the Democrats allowed him to run?*

*Eg the very same people voting right wing Trump would have voted left wing Sanders, because what they're really tired of is the status quo, feeling hopeless, feeling powerless as though they cannot change or improve their own lives.

Edited

So much to unpick. Yes Trump is a egotist who sees other people through the vein of how they make him feel. I doubt he sees them as chumps but rather as his adoring fans. He, after all, genuinely believes he deserves adoration. But he is also someone who understood the key concerns of voters and said he would do something about them. That's how politicians get elected in democracies. Understood your voters. In doing that he was just doing what any competent politician should.

Was he lying? I've seen interviews with people who live near the border who say crossing by illegal migrants did decrease under Trump and increased under Biden. Trump probably will try to improve the economy and deal with immigration. He might not succeed but I think its reasonable to expect his administration will implement policies on these issues.

I would find it hard to conceal / overcome my anger toward people who think less of me because of my race or sex or seem not to share my core values This is just prejudice. Trump voters are not a bunch of racist, sexists. They have racist, sexists, just as the left does. But Trump had real success in winning over more black voters ( I think the most for a republican candidate?) and did extremely well with latino voters. He increased his share of female voters too. Part of the problem with Democrats and Harris, seems to be that they have come to genuinely believe their own propaganda about Trump supporters (see the ad to get women to secretly vote for them). If you demonise the electorate, don't be surprised when they reject you.
And if you are an American, and your core value is that you want what is best for America, then there is your shared value. You may have a different analysis of the problem and therefore the solution, but you still have a shared common ground that you can find respect for each other over.

ChanelBoucle · 07/11/2024 12:43

Brananan · 07/11/2024 04:29

A (normally intelligent, educated) colleague of mine was just today spouting a load of guff about Labour’s plans for inheritance tax and tuition fees, none of which were actually true had she paid attention to the actual facts

What was she saying?

I don't believe someone worried about the effect that changes to IHT and tuition fees is might have on them is a fascist by the way, so not sure why your friends opnions are even worth a mention here.

Edited

They’re worth mentioning because she’s clearly been misinformed by misleading information. What she said is irrelevant to the thread. I too have my concerns over tuition fees and IHT but the reality of the situation is far different to the impression she had gained through, I assume, media sources and click bait.

Cornishcockleshells · 07/11/2024 14:37

The left especially but all main stream parties to some extent have to be aware that there is a window of opportunity that is closing, for us to stop the insults in this country and pause. Press reset. Before it is too late - and we see the sea change here too.

We need to start listening and taking action now, or we will be next. If we want to keep our moderate parties and cohesion then everyone has to play their part - especially people like op, whom are only encouraging othering and therefore adding oxygen to the cause. There is a complacency that worries me.

marmaladeandpeanutbutter · 07/11/2024 15:07

@LetsChaseTrees They tell them what they want to hear, but they don't deliver it. It's so much spin.

wordler · 07/11/2024 16:10

Far right is such a wide term - and the Republican Party now Trump cult is more complex than that. There are many far right evangelists who have flocked to Trump and will be installed in various parts of his administration but Trump has a couple of personal driving forces which is all he really cares about - he’s very racist and his ego needs to be fueled by feeling how rich and successful he is.

The controlling women’s bodies / abortion stuff - that’s coming from the far right Christian body in the US - Trump doesn’t care about any of that apart from how he can use it to gain more power.

The Elon Musk contingent - it’s all about unregulated business to grab more money and power - they don’t care about the issues.

The Steve Bannon contingent want to burn everything to the ground and create chaos.

The Steven Miller continent - there’s your Nazi level far right group who truly believe that white people are superior and everything must be done to preserve their power base.

wordler · 07/11/2024 17:11

Here is a white supremacist in the USA explaining - with no sense of irony that he is talking to a Chinese American chef eating his food - about why he voted for Trump the first time round.

He doesn’t care about any of the lies and propaganda and anti science rhetoric as long as Trump’s policies support his pro white agenda.

www.instagram.com/reel/DCCwWJlPJjw/?igsh=d2x2cG13ZXJzcXky

username7891 · 07/11/2024 17:18

wordler · 07/11/2024 17:11

Here is a white supremacist in the USA explaining - with no sense of irony that he is talking to a Chinese American chef eating his food - about why he voted for Trump the first time round.

He doesn’t care about any of the lies and propaganda and anti science rhetoric as long as Trump’s policies support his pro white agenda.

www.instagram.com/reel/DCCwWJlPJjw/?igsh=d2x2cG13ZXJzcXky

What a cunt.

SugarIsHardtoAvoid · 07/11/2024 17:27

these are good questions OP. I don’t know but speaking to people in your immediate circle, family, community group, seems likely to help keep you feeling supported and grounded. As well as being active online.

wordler · 07/11/2024 17:36

I think we have to work on the issue as a multifaceted problem. There’s a lot of big, longterm scary stuff happening in the world - effects of climate change, financial instability, ongoing issues from the global pandemic and the potential for the next one to be around the corner etc etc

It causes many people to retreat to their comfort zones to feel safe and at the same time try to find scapegoats for why things feel worse. So I’m general people in those situations tend to drift right and become more conservative.

But the things that make them feel unsafe can be broken down and fought against one at a time. Shift people slowing back to the center a bit at a time.

saythebellsofstclements · 07/11/2024 17:45

If everyone's basic needs are met: affordable food, housing, heating, cooling, hydration, education and healthcare - fascism has nothing to grow from.

Fascism grows when people start blaming other people for their own lack of something.

Ensure everyone's needs are met and fascism can't thrive.

dudsville · 07/11/2024 17:49

Apologies for placemarking, I learned from a few posts here, which felt safer than googling, but need more time with the ideas.

Ghouella · 07/11/2024 19:03

Edit: meant to quote @Outandinbout

I agree with so much of what you say, particularly about political strategy - but I disagree that it's prejudiced to suggest that Trump supporters are more likely to be racist and sexist. There's a suggestion in your post that Democrat supporters are an equally mixed bag of racists / sexists, which I find disingenuous.

Not that every one of his supporters is racist or sexist, their reasons for supporting him are no doubt very diverse. Nevertheless, noone supports the Democrats to advance white supremacy, noone supports the Democrats because they want to restrict women's reproductive rights or because they think women are sexual objects for men. Can the same be said for Trump supporters? Many have rallied behind Trump precisely because he supports these things, he has actively courted these people. And those who aren't interested in these issues are at the very least willing to overlook them.

Now, it's still not a good political strategy to show contempt to people you want to vote for you, of course. I am of the (controversial?) opinion that racism and sexism and all manner of bigotry can coexist in the same individuals with other common values which are decent and good. People are strange like that. Also racism and sexism can be overcome in individuals as well as in society. As racism and sexism can't be appeased in good conscience I suppose the answer is to engage with people on other common values. As you say, what is best for America (economically) is a good starting point.

SerafinasGoose · 07/11/2024 19:08

Nothing. The simple matter is that ordinary people can do nothing, at least not on any kind of meaningful political level as politics is a sphere which precludes most of those who didn't start out in life privileged. Trump is a mega-rich entrepeneur; British parliament is full of Eton alumni and lawyers who are practiced in the skill of arguing that grass is red. People from other backgrounds have to fight - hard - to be allowed admission. Hell, the suffragists found that out.

As of the question of standing by. In 'Hitler's Willing Executioners' - seeing as the thread's talking about fascism - Daniel Goldhagen argues that one of four variables needed for the Holocaut to succeed was the complicity of ordinary Germans. The ones who spied on their neighbours and reported those 'harbouring' Jewish people. The ones who didn't, but who stood by and did nothing. And what if they'd stood up against the system in a show of more than simply passive resistance? We know the answer to that. They'd have been added to the figure of 6 million and more.

Those were ordinary, ostensibly decent people.

I don't think we can shelter behind the left/right distinction anymore. And that's a tough pill to swallow. When betrayal comes from the left it stings all the more, because that is the site on which structural and systemic inequalities have traditionally been challenged. That is not what's happening in our contemporary context. Because, what actually IS left and right anymore? The seemingly arbitrary shift between the two is indicative of how unstable these concepts are. Take Israel and Palestine. Israel started out on the left. The oppressed populace. 'Militant' Islam, as it was sometimes called - a monotheistic religion with traditionally conservative values - was 'right'. That whole distinction now seems to have done an about-face.

And what of misogyny and feminism? I witnessed, over a brief window of around 20 years - what I thought was progress. Misogyny, uttered in public, had reached the point where it was laughed at, stamped down on, or dismissed as antediluvian. But it wasn't progress. It was a mere blot on the horizon and we have since moved backward - far, far back, to arguably a worse position than women were in before the second wave. And where is a lot of the male rights activism clustered? Around the 'left'. (It looks nothing like anything I've ever recognised as left). Around the precept of regulating and shouting down dissent, to the point that women have lost their livelihoods and been threatened with death for voicing anything other than an approved opinion. Our traditional oppressors are claiming to be our victims - isn't that a turn-up? And the sad thing is that some women are buying it.

I hate, HATE the rhetoric that asylum seekers and other groups (the 'underclass') are responsible for all the country's woes. Tommy Robinson's crowd should be forcibly tied to chairs and made to watch Remi Weekes' 'His House', IMO. A poster upthread has mentioned that the privileged banking and political sectors cream off most of this country's wealth whilst the rest of us scrap like crabs in a bucket over the remaining spoils. Then they decry each other over the perceived unfairness that someone is getting more than they are - all the while avoiding the glaring issue that it's the fat cats who should be at the butt of their ire. Of course poltical parties won't 'tackle immigration', no matter what they promise. This set-up suits them. They want the status quo kept precisely the way it is, because they are the ones who benefit. All whilst a convenient scapegoat takes the rap for it.

What can people do? We can join protests. We can lobby. We can crowd fund. We can stand up in public - having risk-assessed this very carefully if we happen to be female - and decry racism when we witness it. And we can use our vote. We can also take solace in the fact that despite our extremely flawed, nepotistic, out of date constitutional system, the FPTP voting system at least means the more extreme fringe parties won't seriously get a look-in. And the British cluster around the centre, as a rule. We don't like the far end of the spectrum and our way is evolution, not revolution.

It's not about 'far right' anymore, but about far everything, as far as I can see. Rather than the old horseshoe effect that was once the analogy for the converging left and right on the political spectrum, now seems to me to have come full circle.

I did not leave the left. The left, left me.

wordler · 07/11/2024 19:28

Also one thing that is a long term strategy but one that the Republicans have used very effectively for their benefit in the USA is to start from the bottom up. People in the UK often sneer, laugh at or simply ignore the local political races - parish and county councils get left to retired people or local busybody types. Meetings are infighting or bickering. But these can be the training grounds for developing a politically literate electorate.

Political parties of all colours could encourage younger people to start engaging and standing for local positions - gain the experience of debating, working with cross party groups, the experience of standing for elections, losing and getting back up again. Communities encouraged to turn up to their town and county council meetings etc.

You gain knowledge of your local communities, political experience, campaign experience and the essential experience of trying to get things done in the face of opposition and budget restraints, then take the next step up to a bigger arena, and again etc.

Create a strong, politically literate society from the ground up.

XChrome · 07/11/2024 20:28

Cornishcockleshells · 07/11/2024 07:51

Do you not see the irony of closing down at least 70% of voices on here in favour of an echo chamber? And talk about fascism of all things! Op did refuse to engage with posters that challenged that this IS the reason for the rise of Trump, and didn’t like the answer - listen more, have respect for other peoples concerns and values and don’t resort to insults and othering.

What op is looking to do is ‘fix’ the world to see everything in the same prism as her.

Why must I repeat this? Voices have not been shut down, that is a lie. There are dozens of posts that prove that beyond a shadow of any possible doubt. OP can refuse to speak to whoever she wants, or don't you believe she should have that freedom?
The harassment of the OP on this thread is off the chain.
"You had better talk to me or that proves you're the fascist!" Ridiculous, childish bullying. That is the actual irony, that people are harassing the OP while claiming to be victims.

Cornishcockleshells · 07/11/2024 20:54

XChrome · 07/11/2024 20:28

Why must I repeat this? Voices have not been shut down, that is a lie. There are dozens of posts that prove that beyond a shadow of any possible doubt. OP can refuse to speak to whoever she wants, or don't you believe she should have that freedom?
The harassment of the OP on this thread is off the chain.
"You had better talk to me or that proves you're the fascist!" Ridiculous, childish bullying. That is the actual irony, that people are harassing the OP while claiming to be victims.

Seriously? Are you suggesting it’s okay to discuss a solution to something she says she doesn’t understand, whilst refusing to acknowledge the actual people she is talking about. It’s unbelievable behaviour, toxic and harmful.

I am not a trump supporter, but I believe we should hear from everyone, and they are just as important as everyone else, I am totally ready to hear their pov.

SerafinasGoose · 07/11/2024 21:05

have respect for other peoples concerns and values and don’t resort to insults and othering.

I've seen this objection trotted out several times on this thread. I haven't read it all, but I have read the opening sequence of messages, the first few of which instantly began with the strangely incongruous demand that OP stop calling them 'idiots'.

OP had not called anyone an idiot. Not in her opening gambit and not in any of her earlier responses. These posters are defending themselves from an insult that was never levelled at them in the first place. To put it mildy, it's a strange sort of response, given the only insults I've seen resorted to here are the ones goading OP that she is the 'fascist'. Projection, or what? And hardly measured, nuanced, or proportionate.

As for 'respecting' other people's values, I also have no interest in discussing racism with people who hold racist views whilst denying they're doing any such thing. Too many threads on this site have ended in the same way and the discussion is also pointless. I have no respect for those denying women autonomy over their own bodies. Or for the hideous, dehumanising rhetoric surrounding 'boat people'. Or for political oppression that causes women to suffer. If those who hold those views are offended that others don't engage with or 'respect' their values, then that is what's commonly known as tough shit.

What op is looking to do is ‘fix’ the world to see everything in the same prism as her.

Now you really are building spectacular straw men. No one can be under any illusion that chewing the fat on Mumsnet is going to fix a complex set of political problems that have so far eluded pretty much all the world leaders in the history of the planet.

It's a simple conversation in response to a current event. Nothing more.