Page 5 | Rise of fascism... what, if anything, can decent people do?

Dorisbonson · 07/11/2024 06:05

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 06/11/2024 21:56

Thanks @PerkingFaintly. I think it's very evident that people will try to shut down the discussion but I intend to ignore those posts as it will just derail the thread otherwise.

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I believe you are the one shutting discussion down. You don't want alternative views and opinions. You want an echo chamber.

Your approach is the reason why people vote for the likes of Trump and Farage.

Dorisbonson · 07/11/2024 06:08

Echobelly · 06/11/2024 22:20

I know this sounds extreme, but we need to fight the idea that capitalism (at least in this Milton-Friedman-the-market-will-sort-everything-out form) is the only possible economic model. It's broken. We're not badly off so it may sound like turkeys voting for Christmas but we don't necessarily need a revolution, we do need to start believing a world without billionaires and where huge corporations actually pay a fair sum towards society out of their profits (and this can be done while still leaving them with plenty of profit). Normal people are getting less and less of the pie because it's all going to businesses with huge profits and to those who already have more than they can ever possibly spend. People didn't care when it's the poorest but now even relatively wealthy middle classes are looking at their kids facing a worse quality of life, never owning a home, never earning enough to enjoy life, just keeping their heads above water as basic living costs suck up most of their salaries.

Everyone's standard of living is going to keep going down and down unless something changes fundamentally, and that downwards slide is always going to cause people to shift to the far right, which is exactly what we'll get at the next election.

We need to also stop giving in to these 'fear' narratives - oooh, it's the fake benefits claimants that are costing us, ooh it's the immigrants, and they're criminals too. All a distraction tactic to stop us recognising just have unequal things have become because of the richest taking everything and not having being expected to give anything back to people the made them rich.

We don't have unfettered capitalism. The government spending accounts for 40% of the economy in the UK.

Cornishcockleshells · 07/11/2024 06:17

You are part of the problem op.

Your post highlights EXACTLY why Trump was voted in. Othering, labelling, insulting, silencing and closing down debate is damaging and destabilising in a democracy.
It’s ironic you should come here and insist that only those that have views that exactly match yours can be allowed to speak….

Listening. Exchanging views and building consensus is the answer. .

EverythingAllatOnceAllTheTime · 07/11/2024 06:20

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 06/11/2024 21:32

Trump's victory is obviously alarming for many of us, but we've seen the rise of the far right in lots of places across Europe to a greater or lesser extent as well. History teaches us that bad things happen when decent people stand by and do nothing . So what, if anything, should those of us who are concerned about the rise of fascism be doing now?

Please note: if you're a Trump fan and don't agree that he is a fascist, this is not the thread to debate that. There are plenty of other threads where we can discuss that point, but this one is aimed at those who already accept that premise. Obviously, I can't stop you posting here, as it's an open forum and I don't get to police it, but I won't be engaging with any posts from Trump apologists on this thread because I don't want irrelevant debate to derail the main discussion.

Sorry OP but the comments attached to your thread are pretty arrogant.

Surely better to debate the subject?

EverythingAllatOnceAllTheTime · 07/11/2024 06:26

‘A sufficient number of Americans want what Trump is selling: mass deportation of illegal immigrants, an end to globalisation and a middle finger to the liberal elite’s often self-parodying approach to identity, better known as wokeness.

All of this outweighed whatever doubts voters had about Trump’s character. That the US has elected a convicted felon, who is also indicted for attempting to overthrow the last election and is an overt admirer of autocrats, can be interpreted in one of two ways. Either voters do not take the risk that Trump poses seriously, or they know exactly what they are letting the country in for but still prefer it to business as usual.’

XChrome · 07/11/2024 06:27

Dappy777 · 06/11/2024 22:57

It’s bizarre the way people use ‘fascist’ to mean ‘far-right’. To me, a fascist is a bully - someone who wishes to control others and dictate how they live their lives. So far as I can see, it’s the liberal-left who are the fascists. Who are these ‘faaaar-right’ monsters I keep being warned about? I’ve never met one. However, I have met lots of liberal and left-wing bullies. They’re the ones who want books banned or re-written, and they’re the ones who are trying to limit what I can say and read and watch.

Your understanding of what fascism means is incorrect. Fascism is right wing, authoritarian nationalism, which describes the direction the GOP has gone under Trump.

hobbledyhoy · 07/11/2024 06:30

Ghouella · 06/11/2024 22:25

I'm don't feel like a very robust political analyst here so open to be corrected but I think it's possibly fairly simple in the sense that the far right / fascism arises out of 2 main elements:

Economic hardship / decline of some kind, particularly where this results in unemployment, underemployment or a lack of rewarding employment particularly for men.

Disengagement with politics / democracy or a feeling of having been disenfranchised because they are not directly exposed to the machinery of politics, they feel powerless

I think the mistake of the left is to make this about values - because values are often so important to people on the "left" (not without good reason) they assume that is true for everyone, or that people must be persuaded to share their values. But people voting for fascism, I believe, essentially aren't voting on a basis of values. Even the idea that they are, but their values are "different" and mustn't be dismissed / patronised I think are mostly barking up the wrong tree.

I think this is not about thinking but rather about feeling - those feelings are angry and powerless. Feelings which are validated by the big mean guy that says your anger is GOOD and I will make YOU powerful.

The left / democratic / intellectuals have never been able to deliver this message, and I don't see how they can. It's very persuasive / alluring but also divisive, toxic and fundamentally in opposition to leftist/ democratic values.

So the alternative is to make people feel less angry, less divided and more engaged with democracy so that the alluring message has less power. This is difficult when the very systems that exist within and around fascism intentionally mislead, stoke division and anger, and keep people down. Fascism literally takes away the people's power whilst selling them on the idea it is going to make them powerful. Even in ways that don't relate to the individual, eg fascism is always or almost always accompanied by nationalism "make America great (eg powerful) again".

I think if most of the people who voted for Trump, had a rewarding employment, sense of a meaningful role within their community, and could see democracy in action on their behalf on some level that would go a great way to undoing the power of fascism's false promises. More than education, much more than appeals to higher values. There's a reason the left are often called "elites" and privileged. It's because often they are and that's why they don't need the hope fascism offers (and may be more inured to its effects by the privilege of education).

So basically this is getting a bit rambling but if the left wants to advance it's values, it first has to be electable. I think for that the very first goal has to be JOBS, always. Liberal democracies can protect themselves by ensuring everyone (and most especially unskilled men) has a good job and that meaningful work pays. In the wake of environmental destruction challenging the endless growth model of capitalism (which is the heart of the current crisis and why all modern fascist movements who rely on a vote are climate change denialists), this will require massive public investment in green / renewable industries and jobs.

I think the second thing is to give people more of a voice. Let the people speak / debate publicly, engage publicly with their democracy instead of in private echo chambers of rage online. I think for the left / progressives we have to move away from identity politics and the right-on politics of "no debate". I think there also need to be democratic reforms that inject more of a sense of participation and representation - however I'm not entirely sure what these should be. The Brexit referendum was an example of how NOT to do this - because of the ensuing damage to the economy.

I know that major structural change in politics would be hard (especially with well funded vested interests actively opposing this) but I can see the current systems in both UK and US for example are leading to most people (on both sides of the political spectrum) feeling rather hopeless, uninterested and cynical - whilst politicians are forced by the system to court a tiny percentage of swing voters.

The good thing about eg Trump voters is that they desperately want to be heard and to make a difference. They want to be part of something. Imagine the power of that if it was channeled into something good.

Edited

Hugely insightful, thank you.

XChrome · 07/11/2024 06:31

Cornishcockleshells · 07/11/2024 06:17

You are part of the problem op.

Your post highlights EXACTLY why Trump was voted in. Othering, labelling, insulting, silencing and closing down debate is damaging and destabilising in a democracy.
It’s ironic you should come here and insist that only those that have views that exactly match yours can be allowed to speak….

Listening. Exchanging views and building consensus is the answer. .

Edited

Oh come on now. Don't lie. She didn't say that. She merely said she would not welcome or answer such posts. It's her choice who she talks to and what she wants to talk about. She's not stopping anybody from posting whatever they like and has no ability to do so.

Diomi · 07/11/2024 06:35

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 06/11/2024 22:26

Yeah, I also wondered that, but I am not sure if they will be brave enough to do that. The received wisdom seems to be that we need to align ourselves with the US no matter what. Whether that remains tenable or not will depend on just how far Trump decides to go, I suppose.

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Viktor Orban is ok but Trump isn’t? Isn’t Hungary holding the presidency of the council of the EU at the moment. Be careful who you cosy up with.

Bonnyrowantree · 07/11/2024 06:38

The main issue is MASS immigration. Not immigration perse but MASS immigration. 2nd issue is being called racist or far right when it's mentioned.

EverythingAllatOnceAllTheTime · 07/11/2024 06:42

The LW still don’t get it…

I am counting the days until Starmer is out of office.

Gummybear23 · 07/11/2024 06:46

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 06/11/2024 22:06

Yeah, I think the economy is a significant factor, certainly. I'm not really sure how effective a strategy of listening and engaging actually is. I used to think that was important but I am gradually coming to the view that it doesn't make much of a difference. People who are sucked into the far right ideology don't generally seem interested in engaging in genuine debate, and if you listen uncritically, there is a danger that you just end up unintentionally seeming to validate their extreme views.

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Improve Economy
Provision of strong robust public services like the Scandinavian countries.
Good housing provision.

Poverty and lack of opportunities for progression fuels anger and hatred.

This is then re-directed towards minority groups who are easy targets.

CroftonWillow · 07/11/2024 06:48

The polarisation that has been so exaggerated by social media is the main problem. The loudest, most extreme voices are amplified and fed to people continuously further hardening peoples views and also allowing them to access/engage a community with like minded views in the comments. It's an irresistable and highly destabalising drug.

curious79 · 07/11/2024 06:55

Some of the most severe human rights tragedies of the past century have been perpetuated under the banner of left wing socialist ideologies.

you refuse to define fascism which prevents people usefully discussing (how very left of you - wanting to operate within your own echo chamber and refusing to listen to any dissenting voices).

reality is that right wing and left wing fascism / extremism lie at 11 and 1 on the clock - both extremes to be avoided at all costs and not as far part from one another in their damaging consequences as you might like to think

CautiousLurker1 · 07/11/2024 07:07

I don’t think his election is a sign of the rise of the far right - he won by 2m fewer votes than he lost with in 2020 so had less support. Harris however lost by 14m fewer votes that Biden won, indicating that it is the decline of the right you are seeing.

Ie the question you need to be asking (esp in the light of the voting stats in the UK which showed that altho labour won, they won with a decreasing electoral turnout and only about 25% of the actual voting population voted for them) is why have the right wing parties alienated the population so much that they can only win if the alternative is considered horrendous (the tories here in 2024; Trump in 2020).

I think the Right, and the Democrats in this case, need to look at why they are unelectable - look at their policies and understand why they simply do not reflect the goals and values of large swathes of the population. I think many people voted republican because they were angry at the state of immigration, the economy and felt the Dems had had 4 years to turn it round but had either done nothing or made things worse. Ie, the republicans offered an alternative. Many people voted Rep who also think he is an idiot - SM cherry picks and only shows the zealous supporters, but the role of President is really rather a figurehead role. He’ll be ‘managed’ by his team, I suspect.

Echobelly · 07/11/2024 07:07

Barbadossunset · 06/11/2024 23:13

but we don't necessarily need a revolution, we do need to start believing a world without billionaires

@Echobelly how will you create a world without billionaires?

No idea, not an economist but really no individual should be a billionaire. People don't understand how much more a billion is than a million; for example to give a rare positive example, a billionaire's widow recently gave a billion to a Harlem medical school and it will basically fund free medical degrees for all students there in perpetuity. Yes there are people like Bill Gates who do good with their billions but most don't and their money could do much more good for the world than it can for them, it shouldn't be accruing with one person.

Barbadossunset · 07/11/2024 07:27

curious79 · Today 06:55
Some of the most severe human rights tragedies of the past century have been perpetuated under the banner of left wing socialist ideologies.

Very true but for some reason left wing mass murderers such as Stalin and Chairman Mao are treated more leniently than Hitler. Badges, posters etc of Stalin and Mao are tolerated - Rachel Reeves has hung in her office a picture of “Red Ellen” Wilkinson, a supporter of the Soviet Union - but anyone with a picture of Hitler would be in big trouble.

EverythingAllatOnceAllTheTime · 07/11/2024 07:28

Echobelly · 07/11/2024 07:07

No idea, not an economist but really no individual should be a billionaire. People don't understand how much more a billion is than a million; for example to give a rare positive example, a billionaire's widow recently gave a billion to a Harlem medical school and it will basically fund free medical degrees for all students there in perpetuity. Yes there are people like Bill Gates who do good with their billions but most don't and their money could do much more good for the world than it can for them, it shouldn't be accruing with one person.

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A hugely naive post.

On the way to creating that billion, is often multiples generated for other individuals and corporate entities. Think shareholder value in terms of buybacks and distributions. Think employment for others. Think taxation.

Some individuals assume enormous financial risk, which the majority are simply not willing to do.

Ive worked for several billionaires - they are not like ‘us’.

DieStrassensindimmernass · 07/11/2024 07:30

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 06/11/2024 21:42

No, I won't be offering definitions on this thread. Those who are concerned about the rise of the far right will already know what it means.

You start a discussion but won't give your definition of something you want to discuss?

EasternStandard · 07/11/2024 07:30

Cornishcockleshells · 07/11/2024 06:17

You are part of the problem op.

Your post highlights EXACTLY why Trump was voted in. Othering, labelling, insulting, silencing and closing down debate is damaging and destabilising in a democracy.
It’s ironic you should come here and insist that only those that have views that exactly match yours can be allowed to speak….

Listening. Exchanging views and building consensus is the answer. .

Edited

I think a few years ago posters would not see the problem, now they can but it can't be discussed

The trouble is the shift in reaction is matching the shift in movement of people which will increase, so where will we be in a few years? I don't think head in the sand approach will help.

DieStrassensindimmernass · 07/11/2024 07:31

PerkingFaintly · 06/11/2024 21:51

Thanks for this thread @MrsBennetsPoorNerves .

I think it's important to discuss – and not to allow people to shut down the discussion even though they may try.

OP won't even define what she wants to discuss.

Cornishcockleshells · 07/11/2024 07:51

XChrome · 07/11/2024 06:31

Oh come on now. Don't lie. She didn't say that. She merely said she would not welcome or answer such posts. It's her choice who she talks to and what she wants to talk about. She's not stopping anybody from posting whatever they like and has no ability to do so.

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Do you not see the irony of closing down at least 70% of voices on here in favour of an echo chamber? And talk about fascism of all things! Op did refuse to engage with posters that challenged that this IS the reason for the rise of Trump, and didn’t like the answer - listen more, have respect for other peoples concerns and values and don’t resort to insults and othering.

What op is looking to do is ‘fix’ the world to see everything in the same prism as her.

Meadowfinch · 07/11/2024 07:53

I treat all people equally, with the courtesy that I expect to receive myself. I refuse to join in with or condone the unpleasant behaviour of others.

eg, when I went to South Africa years ago on a business trip, I thanked the black doorman at the hotel for opening a door for me and then taking my bag. My (vile) South African host told me not to. I just stared at him.

The same at a much more recent employer whose jokes were completely unacceptable. When the 'humour' got offensive I'd take my pc and retreat to a meeting room.

My niece lives in Virginia. Her husband is a Trump voter. We have discussed it once, no need to discuss it again. I will not go to America while Trump is in power (I didn't last time either) and will not take part in the nasty belligerent society he wishes to create. My niece and her family choose to live there. That is up to them. They will always be welcome at my house in the UK.

In the end, as individuals, we can only refuse to take part.

Brananan · 07/11/2024 07:53

CroftonWillow · 07/11/2024 06:48

The polarisation that has been so exaggerated by social media is the main problem. The loudest, most extreme voices are amplified and fed to people continuously further hardening peoples views and also allowing them to access/engage a community with like minded views in the comments. It's an irresistable and highly destabalising drug.

This is lazy.

Millions of people in America felt the issues with the Biden government in their pockets. Not as some amorphous 'media' plot.

Also Biden was terrible and should have stood down a year ago.

Cornishcockleshells · 07/11/2024 07:54

I might also add modern day use of fascism can be used to describe the left or the right of politics. We see this political behaviour in both parties, and one could argue it is more prevalent to the left - especially the elements of victim hood, militancy and silencing.