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Rishi Sunak is working on tough new anti-strike laws

258 replies

Emotionalsupportviper · 08/12/2022 12:21

We don't have a government in this country any more.

We have a dictatorship.

OP posts:
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carefulcalculator · 09/12/2022 08:07

Well, he needs to pretend to do something while he is unable to actually govern.

This will make the hard of thinking who read the Mail/Express think 'something is being done'.

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Alexandra2001 · 09/12/2022 08:12

@ExpectMore
A) Spoken like the words of a true bully: "you can of course avoid this pain if you just do why I want"... come on, that's wrong

why is "bullying" only one way? Surely the Govt is telling the staff "work for x amount or go away" i.e. bullying the staff into accepting low pay rises.

B) can they? Last time I checked we had a financial crisis meaning the government didn't have sufficient budget to afford the demands

...whats your mechanism to stop staff leaving the NHS? they are voting with their feet... going abroad, private sector or even other public sector jobs ie PIP assessor (former nurse OT etc) is being advertised @ Β£37k..... plus when we didn't have a financial crisis, govt didn't improve the pay either.

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Squamata · 09/12/2022 08:15

This is what they meant by 'take back control' (of the uppity peasants)

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PeterRabbitHadACarrot · 09/12/2022 08:19

He wants an American system. No unions. His working class subhumans have no power that way. They're stuck, just the way he wants them.
We need a general election, there needs to be outrage

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OddBoots · 09/12/2022 08:20

Shouldn't it be a 2 way street? If a particular job isn't allowed to strike shouldn't there be protections to them offered too such as automatic inflation rises?

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ExpectMore · 09/12/2022 08:22

OddBoots · 09/12/2022 08:20

Shouldn't it be a 2 way street? If a particular job isn't allowed to strike shouldn't there be protections to them offered too such as automatic inflation rises?

Yes, that's what I said previously, a mechanism such as a review by an independent pay body (rather than just an automatic increase in alignment with a particular index such as CPI, RPI, AWE, etc given the well known issues with such an approach).

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fUNNYfACE36 · 09/12/2022 08:29

I don't thinknemergency workers should be allowed to strike, like the army and police aren't allowed to.
The ambulance staff might as well hold a gun to a random person's head and say 'pay them the wage they are asking or we will shoot onother person each day.. who would agree to that?

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Alexandra2001 · 09/12/2022 08:36

fUNNYfACE36 · 09/12/2022 08:29

I don't thinknemergency workers should be allowed to strike, like the army and police aren't allowed to.
The ambulance staff might as well hold a gun to a random person's head and say 'pay them the wage they are asking or we will shoot onother person each day.. who would agree to that?

Well, due to huge staff issues in the NHS and social care.. thats exactly whats happening now ... people are dying waiting for treatment.

The estimate is 200 per week unnecessary deaths (Royal College of Emergency Medicine)

You would also have the issue that folk joined these services knowing they could strike... so they have a contract... how would you change that? as the workers certainly wouldn't agree...

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ExpectMore · 09/12/2022 08:36

PeterRabbitHadACarrot · 09/12/2022 08:19

He wants an American system. No unions. His working class subhumans have no power that way. They're stuck, just the way he wants them.
We need a general election, there needs to be outrage

Typical MN hyperbole, extrapolation, assumption, and exaggeration... try to stick to the facts and you'll have a more meaningful conversation

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ExpectMore · 09/12/2022 08:38

@Alexandra2001

You would also have the issue that folk joined these services knowing they could strike... so they have a contract... how would you change that? as the workers certainly wouldn't agree...

I wouldn't worry about that, there's well known and understood mechanisms for changing terms of contracts

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Alexandra2001 · 09/12/2022 08:41

ExpectMore · 09/12/2022 08:38

@Alexandra2001

You would also have the issue that folk joined these services knowing they could strike... so they have a contract... how would you change that? as the workers certainly wouldn't agree...

I wouldn't worry about that, there's well known and understood mechanisms for changing terms of contracts

What are they? simplistic statement, typical of MN.....

Have you ever had a contract changed when one party didn't want it?

Might lead to even more strikes...... as reported in the Telegraph yesterday, the Govt has accepted that trying to introduce this would damage industrial relations....

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Fireflygal · 09/12/2022 08:42

@ExpectMore What is your work?

Workers are striking because of extremely poor management of workers. It's easy to blame workers but poor morale (staff vacancies as an example) is due to management. Strikes are the result of failure of management/government. The rail strike is an example- transport minster under Boris refused to engage in talks. That has only recently changed.

Nurses & the RCN always NOT militant workers, they have been treated badly for years and Covid & cost of living has been the trigger.

When Hunt was chairman of the Health committee he understood the need for a longterplan for workers. Everyone knows we were heading towards this crisis due to high increases of UK population and aging population.

The government has caused the high levels of inflation due to their economic mismanagement. A small minority of the population (Conservative members) voted for Truss who created massive debt which has fueled the UKs high level of inflation.

The poor morale and staff vacancies have been well known by the Government for years - they could have done something to stop situation years ago. Anyone who believes the government wasn't aware is extremely naive.

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EmmaAgain22 · 09/12/2022 08:48

ExpectMore · 09/12/2022 08:36

Typical MN hyperbole, extrapolation, assumption, and exaggeration... try to stick to the facts and you'll have a more meaningful conversation

I find Peter's statement to be a good factual view of the current situation, and I find hyperbole annoying. None here though.

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lemmein · 09/12/2022 09:14

Thank you Quveas - I was about to say something similar but more sweary! You have stopped me from showing myself up.

This vile, corrupt cabal is at the beck and call of big business. None of them has ever had a job - they've gone from private schools to university to internships to politics or jobs in mummy's/daddy's business and then to politics. It's just a gravy train for them and hey intend to ride it for as long as possible.

The people who heated their stables with public money will allow old people to freeze to death and children to go hungry.

We need a general election now! (Actually, we probably need a revolution - the whole system needs to be updated. There's no way that Johnson should have been able to just ignore the "gentlemen's agreements" that seem to for a lot of parliamentary "law".)


@Emotionalsupportviper I think I love you! πŸ˜…πŸ‘πŸ»πŸ‘πŸ»πŸ‘πŸ»πŸ‘πŸ»

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ExpectMore · 09/12/2022 09:20

@Alexandra2001

Yes, on a number of occasions, it's fairly common practice.

There's a useful article on it here if you'd like to learn more:

www.acas.org.uk/changing-an-employment-contract/advice-for-employees/if-your-employer-introduces-a-contract-change-without-your-agreement

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Alexandra2001 · 09/12/2022 09:29

@ExpectMore I m well aware of the ACAS process and their advice....but i think you need to read your link a little better..

If there is a trade union
If your employer imposes a contract change after failing to reach agreement with a trade union, the union might consider:

taking industrial action

Can you really not see the problem with your ideas....

The unions and Govt can't agree a wage rise, how on earth do you think a huge change in T&C's will go down?

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boobot1 · 09/12/2022 09:33

DuchessDandelion · 08/12/2022 13:15

I hate to bring Brexit into it but this was one of the political motivations.

Nothing to do with it, this is the general direction of the whole west.

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user12345678213 · 09/12/2022 09:40

boobot1 · 09/12/2022 09:33

Nothing to do with it, this is the general direction of the whole west.

Haven't yet heard of German French Govts removing worker rights? or by the 'West do you mean America?

Brexit removes the ECJ option, atm most notable on sewage into rivers, the new office of environmental protection has no really power, the EA are toothless and its far cheaper for a water company to pump sewage into a water way than it is to fix the problem.

Previously the UK could be taken to the ECJ and punitive fines imposed, now the UK marks its own homework.

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DuchessDandelion · 09/12/2022 10:07

user12345678213 · 09/12/2022 09:40

Haven't yet heard of German French Govts removing worker rights? or by the 'West do you mean America?

Brexit removes the ECJ option, atm most notable on sewage into rivers, the new office of environmental protection has no really power, the EA are toothless and its far cheaper for a water company to pump sewage into a water way than it is to fix the problem.

Previously the UK could be taken to the ECJ and punitive fines imposed, now the UK marks its own homework.

Exactly. The rhetoric about removing rights (right to protest, strike, employment rights etc) has been espoused for years by the same politicians and 'elite' as were pushing Brexit. Leaving the EU meant that the EU wouldn't be able to stand up for those rights on our behalf...it shunted a huge power balance and it's to our shame as country that people still don't get this.

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Soothsayer1 · 09/12/2022 10:28

Fireflygal · 09/12/2022 08:42

@ExpectMore What is your work?

Workers are striking because of extremely poor management of workers. It's easy to blame workers but poor morale (staff vacancies as an example) is due to management. Strikes are the result of failure of management/government. The rail strike is an example- transport minster under Boris refused to engage in talks. That has only recently changed.

Nurses & the RCN always NOT militant workers, they have been treated badly for years and Covid & cost of living has been the trigger.

When Hunt was chairman of the Health committee he understood the need for a longterplan for workers. Everyone knows we were heading towards this crisis due to high increases of UK population and aging population.

The government has caused the high levels of inflation due to their economic mismanagement. A small minority of the population (Conservative members) voted for Truss who created massive debt which has fueled the UKs high level of inflation.

The poor morale and staff vacancies have been well known by the Government for years - they could have done something to stop situation years ago. Anyone who believes the government wasn't aware is extremely naive.

This, all of this, thank you for laying it all out πŸ™πŸ§‘

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whataballbag · 09/12/2022 10:39

fUNNYfACE36 · 09/12/2022 08:29

I don't thinknemergency workers should be allowed to strike, like the army and police aren't allowed to.
The ambulance staff might as well hold a gun to a random person's head and say 'pay them the wage they are asking or we will shoot onother person each day.. who would agree to that?

So we just accept that we're paid an absolute pittance to make life or death decisions every day?

Where has the goodwill gone?

The same people banging pots and pans every week are now abusing us down the phone because we just don't have the ambulances or the staff to send out on the response times that people need and deserve.

It's absolutely soul destroying to tell an elderly lady who's husband is stuck on the floor after a fall that we could be upwards of 12 hours. And that there's nothing else we could possibly do.

It's even worse to listen to someone screaming please get here quick and see that there is absolutely no one available.

There was a para from LAS (I think) on LBS news the other day. He was the ONLY para on shift for an area of more than one million people. It's NOT safe.

Nobody who hasn't ever been in that situation has a right to say how much we should earn.

And after a 12 hour shift of that I'll come home to a freezing cold house because I just can't afford to put any more on the gas.

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ExpectMore · 09/12/2022 10:43

Alexandra2001 · 09/12/2022 09:29

@ExpectMore I m well aware of the ACAS process and their advice....but i think you need to read your link a little better..

If there is a trade union
If your employer imposes a contract change after failing to reach agreement with a trade union, the union might consider:

taking industrial action

Can you really not see the problem with your ideas....

The unions and Govt can't agree a wage rise, how on earth do you think a huge change in T&C's will go down?

There's a difference between changing T&Cs and changing the law: all contracts of employment will require employees to work in accordance of the law and the contract of work can't over-rule it.

It's no different to for example the pension age being aged, maternity rights being changed, NI rates being changed... they're not governed by the contract, and people will have joined with a set expectation, but have been changed by a result of changes in the law

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ExpectMore · 09/12/2022 10:47

Fireflygal · 09/12/2022 08:42

@ExpectMore What is your work?

Workers are striking because of extremely poor management of workers. It's easy to blame workers but poor morale (staff vacancies as an example) is due to management. Strikes are the result of failure of management/government. The rail strike is an example- transport minster under Boris refused to engage in talks. That has only recently changed.

Nurses & the RCN always NOT militant workers, they have been treated badly for years and Covid & cost of living has been the trigger.

When Hunt was chairman of the Health committee he understood the need for a longterplan for workers. Everyone knows we were heading towards this crisis due to high increases of UK population and aging population.

The government has caused the high levels of inflation due to their economic mismanagement. A small minority of the population (Conservative members) voted for Truss who created massive debt which has fueled the UKs high level of inflation.

The poor morale and staff vacancies have been well known by the Government for years - they could have done something to stop situation years ago. Anyone who believes the government wasn't aware is extremely naive.

I think I largely agree that the issues are caused by poor management, per my previous post that the NHS doesn't need more money, it just needs to be better organised and managed.

I'm not saying that workers don't need protected, they do and for example I believe an independent pay review body is a possible solution.

I just fundamentally don't agree with those that provide critical services being able to strike - there's other means to have your voice heard that doesn't affect critical service users

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Soothsayer1 · 09/12/2022 11:10

I can see that if critical workers go on strike this is extremely problematic
But a bigger problem is how to attract people into these roles when they are badly paid and also can inflict a good deal of trauma and stress upon the person doing the job
What can we do about the fact that fewer and fewer of us are willing to do these essential but stressful and badly paid jobs?
We all want an ambulance to rescue us if we have an accident but few of us want to deal with the trauma of being a first responder
We all want to eat meat but a few of us want to do the grizzly work of an abattoir worker
We all want fresh fruit and veg but none of us want to go in the fields and pick it because it's difficult unpleasant and badly paid work

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Alexandra2001 · 09/12/2022 11:21

ExpectMore · 09/12/2022 10:43

There's a difference between changing T&Cs and changing the law: all contracts of employment will require employees to work in accordance of the law and the contract of work can't over-rule it.

It's no different to for example the pension age being aged, maternity rights being changed, NI rates being changed... they're not governed by the contract, and people will have joined with a set expectation, but have been changed by a result of changes in the law

@ExpectMore Its not me that suggested changes to contracts/ T&C's ... it was you...

I wouldn't worry about that, there's well known and understood mechanisms for changing terms of contracts

Any new legislation has to go through the commons, the house of lords and will doubtless be subject to legal challenge inc the ECHR.

Will not happen this side of a GE, so little help to the current situation.

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