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Rishi Sunak is working on tough new anti-strike laws

258 replies

Emotionalsupportviper · 08/12/2022 12:21

We don't have a government in this country any more.

We have a dictatorship.

OP posts:
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workiskillingme · 08/12/2022 19:56

So sick of hearing this well they chose their jobs
I'm paid a couple of hundred quid more a month than when I was a newly qualified nurse 12 years on and I've gone up a band. Yet the cost of petrol, bread, gas and electric has skyrocketed
Why should I just be grateful? I spent so many years training when my kids were babies. They mainly saw the back of my head for three years . I couldn't attend so many things at nurseries missed many firsts etc but it will be worth it everyone cried. You will be giving them such a good future . And here I am they are teens who missed out on so much in their early years and now we can't even afford a nice holiday

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Quveas · 08/12/2022 20:05

Emotionalsupportviper · 08/12/2022 19:45

Their salary when they started the job was worth considerably more than it is now. Effectively most people have lower salaries (less spending power) than they did even 5 years ago let alone 10, 15, 20 years go.

And should this not apply to MPs as well - didn't they vote themselves a well-above-inflation pay-rise?

As well as their perks, expenses, consultancies, directorships etc etc etc

My salary was worth 27% less than it was worth in 2009 in March this year. I am actually not on a bad salary, but not am I will off. And I'm beginning to struggle. 65, disabled, and I am cold wfh because I can't afford the energy I did a year ago. I grew up poor. Much poorer than I am now, in theory. But we were never cold. This country needs a wake up call. Whatever that takes.

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Leemoe · 08/12/2022 20:21

Bottom line line as far as nurses and junior doctors and othe HCPs go is;
If you want a free at the point of access healthcare system populated by a qualified, educated and intelligent workforce then you should expect to pay for that via taxation.

If you aren't prepared to vote for this then prepare for an insurance based system where you will pay even more directly from your salary (for the avoidance of doubt, this is the government's preferred option)

Either way the professionals will be paid commensurate with their worth. The rest is up to you.

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walkinginsunshinekat · 08/12/2022 20:54

He wont get this through and certainly not in time to deal with the current strikes this winter, will have huge opposition in the 'lords too.

Its just red meat PR for the far right in the media, party membership and some boomer voters.

Pity he isn't advocating unions on company boards etc, longer term would have far greater effect on reducing strikes.

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ExpectMore · 08/12/2022 21:41

Emotionalsupportviper · 08/12/2022 12:21

We don't have a government in this country any more.

We have a dictatorship.

Let's hope he gets on with it quickly!

It's disgusting how some in critical services (nursing, border force, rail, post) are holding the country (who have already suffered) to ransom with unreasonable demands (I mean, who ever thinks inflation, or even inflation+, rises are reasonable?! They're clearly missing the whole point of inflation...!) by neglecting their duties.

I get they're having a tough time of it like everyone else but some professions just shouldn't be allowed to strike and individuals should enter the profession knowing that (and if they're not happy with it, don't enter the profession!).

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Alexandra2001 · 08/12/2022 22:15

ExpectMore · 08/12/2022 21:41

Let's hope he gets on with it quickly!

It's disgusting how some in critical services (nursing, border force, rail, post) are holding the country (who have already suffered) to ransom with unreasonable demands (I mean, who ever thinks inflation, or even inflation+, rises are reasonable?! They're clearly missing the whole point of inflation...!) by neglecting their duties.

I get they're having a tough time of it like everyone else but some professions just shouldn't be allowed to strike and individuals should enter the profession knowing that (and if they're not happy with it, don't enter the profession!).

What do you propose to do about the critical shortage of NHS staff and the 7.2m waiting for treatment... & how will any of this improve if staff take your advice and leave?

Lets be honest you haven't thought this through have you.

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ExpectMore · 08/12/2022 22:42

@Alexandra2001

What do you propose to do about the critical shortage of NHS staff and the 7.2m waiting for treatment...

... I'm fairly confident a strike is exactly the opposite of what's required when there's a critical shortage of staff and 7.2m waiting for treatment...!!!

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EmmaAgain22 · 08/12/2022 23:31

ExpectMore · 08/12/2022 21:41

Let's hope he gets on with it quickly!

It's disgusting how some in critical services (nursing, border force, rail, post) are holding the country (who have already suffered) to ransom with unreasonable demands (I mean, who ever thinks inflation, or even inflation+, rises are reasonable?! They're clearly missing the whole point of inflation...!) by neglecting their duties.

I get they're having a tough time of it like everyone else but some professions just shouldn't be allowed to strike and individuals should enter the profession knowing that (and if they're not happy with it, don't enter the profession!).

And you think there'll be lots of applicants for this?

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TooBigForMyBoots · 08/12/2022 23:37

It's disgusting that our essential, critical workers are being guilt tripped, blamed and expected to pay for 12 years of Tory incompetence and corruption.

12 years. That's multiple cohorts of staff that could have been trained and recruited. The reason they weren't, is this shit show of a Conservative government.

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howshouldibehave · 08/12/2022 23:42

some professions just shouldn't be allowed to strike and individuals should enter the profession knowing that (and if they're not happy with it, don't enter the profession!)

Which professions shouldn’t be allowed to strike?

I am a teacher and I entered the profession knowing I was able to go on strike, I was happy to enter the profession on that basis. Are you saying this right should now be removed? After 25 years of me being in the role?

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Soothsayer1 · 08/12/2022 23:43

some professions just shouldn't be allowed to strike and individuals should enter the profession knowing that (and if they're not happy with it, don't enter the profession!)
I can see the validity of your line of thinking, but where it falls down is... it's predicated on this being a sought after & desirable career, it isnt they cant get enough people to do it and the existing ones are leaving in droves. The gvt is trying to use leverage it doesn't have
bit like when care workers were threatened with the sack for not having the vaccine....er there aren't any workers to replace them you have no bargaining power you dummies!

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EmmaAgain22 · 08/12/2022 23:52

Soothsayer1 · 08/12/2022 23:43

some professions just shouldn't be allowed to strike and individuals should enter the profession knowing that (and if they're not happy with it, don't enter the profession!)
I can see the validity of your line of thinking, but where it falls down is... it's predicated on this being a sought after & desirable career, it isnt they cant get enough people to do it and the existing ones are leaving in droves. The gvt is trying to use leverage it doesn't have
bit like when care workers were threatened with the sack for not having the vaccine....er there aren't any workers to replace them you have no bargaining power you dummies!

The government did actually push this through, then did a u turn. But many will not return to the profession after being so badly treated. My local council has posters up offering one off payments to those wishing to return.

I can't believe some posters think there are folk keen to step up for the awful conditions certain professions have been suffering for years. Still waiting for a poster to explain who they think will do these jobs.

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Japanesejazz · 08/12/2022 23:57

My daughter is a physiotherapist
Rest assured she happily accepted her NHS bursary and worked on a covid ward for a few weeks on university placement during lockdown knowing full well she would never work for the NHS again
A job in private healthcare for 4 days a week pays £10k more for the same job in NHS for 5 days a week

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Soothsayer1 · 09/12/2022 00:02

Still waiting for a poster to explain who they think will do these jobs
indeed, maybe forced labour, prisoners for example? I'm sure a chain gang would be fine running a ward...could that be what they have in mind?

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MamaFirst · 09/12/2022 06:37

ExpectMore · 08/12/2022 21:41

Let's hope he gets on with it quickly!

It's disgusting how some in critical services (nursing, border force, rail, post) are holding the country (who have already suffered) to ransom with unreasonable demands (I mean, who ever thinks inflation, or even inflation+, rises are reasonable?! They're clearly missing the whole point of inflation...!) by neglecting their duties.

I get they're having a tough time of it like everyone else but some professions just shouldn't be allowed to strike and individuals should enter the profession knowing that (and if they're not happy with it, don't enter the profession!).

Well that's basically the point... People aren't entering these careers anymore because it's so shit to work in and gives you tens of thousands of pounds of debt at the end of the training. What happens then? The current staff leave and they can't recruit... Are you going to paramedic/nurse/teach yourself??
My chosen career is not what it was when I entered it. This is not what I signed up to.

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blackalert · 09/12/2022 06:52

ExpectMore · 08/12/2022 22:42

@Alexandra2001

What do you propose to do about the critical shortage of NHS staff and the 7.2m waiting for treatment...

... I'm fairly confident a strike is exactly the opposite of what's required when there's a critical shortage of staff and 7.2m waiting for treatment...!!!

Then you're totally missing the point of the strikes.

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Hungrycaterpillarsmummy · 09/12/2022 07:24

Emotionalsupportviper · 08/12/2022 19:45

Their salary when they started the job was worth considerably more than it is now. Effectively most people have lower salaries (less spending power) than they did even 5 years ago let alone 10, 15, 20 years go.

And should this not apply to MPs as well - didn't they vote themselves a well-above-inflation pay-rise?

As well as their perks, expenses, consultancies, directorships etc etc etc

The cost of Mp's salaries is tiny across the board than what increasing every public sector worker's salary.

It's just not realistic.

Unions are just on a power trip. They need people to join and pay their union fee. It's a Ponzi scheme.

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paintitallover · 09/12/2022 07:31

Withdrawal of labour is their only option, isn't it? People can't eat fresh air. Practically nobody in the government can understand really the poverty in the uk now. Real wages have fallen and fallen. I'm certainly inconvenienced through strikes, in a number of ways actually, but I say good luck to them.

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ExpectMore · 09/12/2022 07:38

howshouldibehave · 08/12/2022 23:42

some professions just shouldn't be allowed to strike and individuals should enter the profession knowing that (and if they're not happy with it, don't enter the profession!)

Which professions shouldn’t be allowed to strike?

I am a teacher and I entered the profession knowing I was able to go on strike, I was happy to enter the profession on that basis. Are you saying this right should now be removed? After 25 years of me being in the role?

Those that provide critical services to the country such as armed forces, police, fire, ambulance, critical national infrastructure workers (eg power generators, national grid, utilities), care providers, NHS etc

This isn't a new concept, it already applies to a limited set of services - I just think it should be expanded.

Full disclosure: I work in a profession that's allowed to strike and it frightens me what would happen if we did hence I don't believe we should be allowed.

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Alexandra2001 · 09/12/2022 07:44

ExpectMore · 08/12/2022 22:42

@Alexandra2001

What do you propose to do about the critical shortage of NHS staff and the 7.2m waiting for treatment...

... I'm fairly confident a strike is exactly the opposite of what's required when there's a critical shortage of staff and 7.2m waiting for treatment...!!!

@ExpectMore

The Govt can of course pay NHS a significant pay rise and avoid all the disruption.... but we all know why they wont...

Its to wreck the NHS and sell it off

e.g Hunts answer is to send more patients to the private sector... creating more better paid jobs but in private healthcare.. and where will they get these staff from? the NHS... more shortages... more delays... more private health work & so it will continue...

Why are putting the onus on the staff to continue working for low wages?

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ExpectMore · 09/12/2022 07:47

Soothsayer1 · 09/12/2022 00:02

Still waiting for a poster to explain who they think will do these jobs
indeed, maybe forced labour, prisoners for example? I'm sure a chain gang would be fine running a ward...could that be what they have in mind?

I don't believe anyone has said (I certainly haven't) that there shouldn't be a mechanism to review remuneration and terms* to ensure they're treated fairly - personally I think this is how it should operate - I just don't believe they should strike.

*this already happens in areas and I believe some of the current striking workers have already been offered but rejected what the independent pay body recommended...

Lots of people I think are forgetting that pay (actual £) is only one part of the picture, many of these groups are public sector so essentially have a guaranteed job for life, that's worth a lot compared to private sector (or one that's disaster proof eg during covid, furlough wasn't a thing in the public sector, even for those whose work was put on hold).

There's also the argument of "hey my real terms pay has decreased" over x years - well yes, a) that was intentional in places as it was considered that certain professions were overpaid (and why should the general public be asked to overpay for their services ie through tax?) and b) that's what inflation is all about and at present, we're all suffering.

Then there's the pension... the list goes on but people ignore it and simply resort to simplistic arguments, identity politics, and bullying tactics (eg strikes).

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ExpectMore · 09/12/2022 07:56

@Alexandra2001

The NHS doesn't need more money, it just weds to be better organised. Go an look and some of the independent research that compares our healthcare system with those of other countries and you'll see it's often better equipped and medical staff are better paid yet we still have worse outcomes.

I firmly believe in the principles of an NHS but it's frustrating how incapable it is of operating - an issue it has is when it has a problem it just gets more money thrown at it to apply a sticking plaster. That wouldn't happen in private sector, problems get solved or companies ceased to exist - it forces a different innovative mindset.

So whilst I firmly believe in the principles of the NHS and am grateful it's there, I think it has a lot to learn from how the private sector operates and may even need support from the private sector to keep it on its feet whilst it sorts itself out.

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ExpectMore · 09/12/2022 08:00

@Alexandra2001

I should have added to your specific points:

The Govt can of course pay NHS a significant pay rise and avoid all the disruption.... but we all know why they wont...

A) Spoken like the words of a true bully: "you can of course avoid this pain if you just do why I want"... come on, that's wrong
B) can they? Last time I checked we had a financial crisis meaning the government didn't have sufficient budget to afford the demands...

Don't forget, the government doesn't have a magic pot of endless money that grows on trees, it only has what money we give it (in taxes) and it needs to balance the books....

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poshme · 09/12/2022 08:05

@Emotionalsupportviper MPs don't decide their own pay. It's usually Increased in line with public sector pay increases. So last year it was about 2%
(Usually - but in 2021 it was increased by... 0%)

They haven't voted on their own pay since 2010.

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Alexandra2001 · 09/12/2022 08:05

NHS scores very highly on efficiency (Kings Fund)

NHS spending based on demand and medical inflation has been underfunded for decades... compared to European healthcare services... by approx 1 to 2% per year but over 10 years, thats 10 to 20% less.
(Nuffield Trust)

The benefits you mention are all great (though also available to many skilled comparable private sector roles too) but none pay the rent or bills.. oh and public sector jobs are not for life.. they can be laid off as easily as in any other sector.

Independent review bodies have terms of reference set by the Govt.... the NHS one has an "affordability element" the MPs one does not.

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