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Rishi Sunak is working on tough new anti-strike laws

258 replies

Emotionalsupportviper · 08/12/2022 12:21

We don't have a government in this country any more.

We have a dictatorship.

OP posts:
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Alexandra2001 · 09/12/2022 11:27

I'm not saying that workers don't need protected, they do and for example I believe an independent pay review body is a possible solution

Impossible as terms of reference are set by Govt...

I just fundamentally don't agree with those that provide critical services being able to strike - there's other means to have your voice heard that doesn't affect critical service users

All jobs are critical, by your own measure, you would not only inc blue light services but food production, distribution and sales... couriers... waste collection... Comms & IT (my sector)

Almost everyone does a job that is either essential or vital to a critical service.

Pay & condition review bodies for everyone? you 'd create a monster.

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ExpectMore · 09/12/2022 11:58

Alexandra2001 · 09/12/2022 11:27

I'm not saying that workers don't need protected, they do and for example I believe an independent pay review body is a possible solution

Impossible as terms of reference are set by Govt...

I just fundamentally don't agree with those that provide critical services being able to strike - there's other means to have your voice heard that doesn't affect critical service users

All jobs are critical, by your own measure, you would not only inc blue light services but food production, distribution and sales... couriers... waste collection... Comms & IT (my sector)

Almost everyone does a job that is either essential or vital to a critical service.

Pay & condition review bodies for everyone? you 'd create a monster.

No, not all jobs are critical (no matter how "important" we think they are nor how "important" those doing them think they are).

I think once you've wrapped your head around not all jobs being critical you'll see the way forward.

Of course their terms are set by the government against the aims that our elected MPs set out on our behalf. Eg it might be higher than CPI raises to make the sector more attractive, lower if there's too many staff and need to reduce numbers through attrition... they're always going to need terms of reference set against which they consider what's "fair". That's not an issue and should be fairly obvious when you think about it (it's why just setting all raises equal to a particular Indix misses the point)

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ExpectMore · 09/12/2022 12:11

Soothsayer1 · 09/12/2022 11:10

I can see that if critical workers go on strike this is extremely problematic
But a bigger problem is how to attract people into these roles when they are badly paid and also can inflict a good deal of trauma and stress upon the person doing the job
What can we do about the fact that fewer and fewer of us are willing to do these essential but stressful and badly paid jobs?
We all want an ambulance to rescue us if we have an accident but few of us want to deal with the trauma of being a first responder
We all want to eat meat but a few of us want to do the grizzly work of an abattoir worker
We all want fresh fruit and veg but none of us want to go in the fields and pick it because it's difficult unpleasant and badly paid work

I don't see why money is seen as the silver bullet solution. It isn't. It's a well established fact that there's no strong correlation between salary and productivity or motivation.

For example, refer to this study (by a repeatable body):

hbr.org/2013/04/does-money-really-affect-motiv

If you're interested in further research, there are a series of references in "Good to Great" by Jim Collins which reinforce the point.

For me it's about:
A) Protecting Service Users - by banning strikes
B) Protecting employees of service providers - by utilising mechanisms such as recommendations of pay review bodies (and the fact that the market will always move to its equilibrium point)
C) ensuring (for the case of publicly funded bodies), monies from the public purse is (for want of a better description) not squandered through appropriate effective management and coordination

There clearly needs to be give and take which isn't presently happening. Demands for more pay, protected jobs, refusal to modernise are just ludicrous (how can anyone ever think it's reasonable to demand to keep doing jobs like they've always been done, with no threat of redundancy even if the job isn't required, and getting paid even more?').

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MarshaBradyo · 09/12/2022 12:16

ExpectMore · 09/12/2022 12:11

I don't see why money is seen as the silver bullet solution. It isn't. It's a well established fact that there's no strong correlation between salary and productivity or motivation.

For example, refer to this study (by a repeatable body):

hbr.org/2013/04/does-money-really-affect-motiv

If you're interested in further research, there are a series of references in "Good to Great" by Jim Collins which reinforce the point.

For me it's about:
A) Protecting Service Users - by banning strikes
B) Protecting employees of service providers - by utilising mechanisms such as recommendations of pay review bodies (and the fact that the market will always move to its equilibrium point)
C) ensuring (for the case of publicly funded bodies), monies from the public purse is (for want of a better description) not squandered through appropriate effective management and coordination

There clearly needs to be give and take which isn't presently happening. Demands for more pay, protected jobs, refusal to modernise are just ludicrous (how can anyone ever think it's reasonable to demand to keep doing jobs like they've always been done, with no threat of redundancy even if the job isn't required, and getting paid even more?').

Good posts generally but agree. As someone who is used to a sector that contracts as demand falls in recessions (of which there have a been a couple) it’s basic.

But also agree with other points for non private sector.

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Soothsayer1 · 09/12/2022 12:23

I don't see why money is seen as the silver bullet solution
I don't believe I said or implied that it was just about money, but ultimately if your job doesn't pay you enough to afford the basics of life then money, or specifically the lack of money, becomes very significant
Money may not be a sufficient condition for a good life but it certainly is a necessary condition!

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Alexandra2001 · 09/12/2022 14:37

ExpectMore · 09/12/2022 11:58

No, not all jobs are critical (no matter how "important" we think they are nor how "important" those doing them think they are).

I think once you've wrapped your head around not all jobs being critical you'll see the way forward.

Of course their terms are set by the government against the aims that our elected MPs set out on our behalf. Eg it might be higher than CPI raises to make the sector more attractive, lower if there's too many staff and need to reduce numbers through attrition... they're always going to need terms of reference set against which they consider what's "fair". That's not an issue and should be fairly obvious when you think about it (it's why just setting all raises equal to a particular Indix misses the point)

@ExpectMore This is where you lack any sort of logic... so lets look at your "not all jobs are critical..." statement...

How does hospital work if a scanner is faulty, internet down, no couriers for the vast amount of supplies they need? ... we saw in the pandemic how seemingly unconnected industries that shut down had huge knock on effects for health and food production... e.g the shortages of Co2.

Everyone of your "isolated" critical sectors relies on a whole host of supplementary sectors in order to function... once you get your head around this, you'll see how silly your proposals actually are...

...then there is the damage to industrial relations, even you must see that an unhappy disgruntled workforce aren't going to be particularly productive.

However, i agree, as the NHS can't attract enough staff, we need to give them an above CPI wage rise.

Got there in the end :)

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ExpectMore · 09/12/2022 14:44

@Alexandra2001

Hey, if it makes you happy, as it's clear you'll never agree otherwise, of course every role is critical... I mean:

  1. of course a hospital can't open if the Costa that everyone get their coffee from is on strike...
  2. of course a power plant can't operate if the cleaning company that keeps the admin block clean is on strike...
  3. of course a train can't run if the news agent that sells papers to the commuters isn't open as the workers are on strike...
  4. of course a law court can't function if the company it uses to shred its confidential waste is on strike...
  5. of course a hospital can't function if their scanner is broken and the IT provider is on strike...

    ... of course they can! They're either not business critical or they're business critical but there's ways to mitigate.

    Gees, I'd hate to take a look any any business continuity plan you develop, it'd run to 1000s of pages if every role, function, and activity of an organisation is business critical....! 🤦‍♀️
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ExpectMore · 09/12/2022 14:45

@MarshaBradyo thanks

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ExpectMore · 09/12/2022 14:49

@Soothsayer1 I tend to agree it's a necessary but insufficient condition (in fact, I believe that's even what the link I sent was saying).

I just don't believe a) many of those striking are paid an amount below the necessary minimum and b) (again) striking (ie the removal of critical services from vulnerable people) is the way to go about achieving resolution

It's also not a clear cut discussion: what's necessary for an individual also needs to take account of their broader life choices (where they choose to life, how big a house they choose to live in, how many kids they choose to have, what circumstances outside of their control they need to deal with, how much money they've chosen to save historically for rainy days like today) which again is why an arbitrary figure of inflation + x% is rubbish (and why individuals have a part to play in balancing money in with money out)

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Alexandra2001 · 09/12/2022 14:53

@ExpectMore Be serious please...

So lets take out those services you quote... that leaves about 99% of the rest of the work force... who you would have "review bodies" for...... 1000s of them....

Interesting you think NHS staff shouldn't have welfare facilities or scanners aren't essential to the function of a hospital... but hey ho!

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ExpectMore · 09/12/2022 14:58

@Alexandra2001 it's clear we have different opinions that are unlikely to converge given our viewpoints and I'd guess different life experiences so I think best to agree to disagree on this one :)

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EmmaAgain22 · 09/12/2022 14:58

ExpectMore · 09/12/2022 14:44

@Alexandra2001

Hey, if it makes you happy, as it's clear you'll never agree otherwise, of course every role is critical... I mean:

  1. of course a hospital can't open if the Costa that everyone get their coffee from is on strike...
  2. of course a power plant can't operate if the cleaning company that keeps the admin block clean is on strike...
  3. of course a train can't run if the news agent that sells papers to the commuters isn't open as the workers are on strike...
  4. of course a law court can't function if the company it uses to shred its confidential waste is on strike...
  5. of course a hospital can't function if their scanner is broken and the IT provider is on strike...

    ... of course they can! They're either not business critical or they're business critical but there's ways to mitigate.

    Gees, I'd hate to take a look any any business continuity plan you develop, it'd run to 1000s of pages if every role, function, and activity of an organisation is business critical....! 🤦‍♀️

This is either a joke or a major bad faith argument. Nothing to do with what Alexandra said.

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Alexandra2001 · 09/12/2022 15:01

@ExpectMore You can say that again... However, we did agree that where there are staff shortages, pay needs to match or exceed inflation, so not a totally pointless discussion... i'll tell my DD to expect a substantial payrise :)

Have a lovely weekend.

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ExpectMore · 09/12/2022 15:05

Alexandra2001 · 09/12/2022 15:01

@ExpectMore You can say that again... However, we did agree that where there are staff shortages, pay needs to match or exceed inflation, so not a totally pointless discussion... i'll tell my DD to expect a substantial payrise :)

Have a lovely weekend.

For clarity, I didn't agree that: I was citing examples and also stated the public purse in finite ;)

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Alexandra2001 · 09/12/2022 15:10

ExpectMore · 09/12/2022 15:05

For clarity, I didn't agree that: I was citing examples and also stated the public purse in finite ;)

Oh yes you did.... and you did not mention anything about the public purse within this post...

Of course their terms are set by the government against the aims that our elected MPs set out on our behalf. Eg it might be higher than CPI raises to make the sector more attractive, lower if there's too many staff and need to reduce numbers through attrition...

Stop your twisting... its not a good look.

As i said, have a nice weekend.

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ExpectMore · 09/12/2022 15:20

@Alexandra2001

Please see below for extracts from my posts:

Don't forget, the government doesn't have a magic pot of endless money that grows on trees, it only has what money we give it (in taxes) and it needs to balance the books.... ie a finite pot

eg (per your C&P, in reference to the examples I provided) ie an example

I'm genuinely checking out now as this going around in circles in hard work!

Ps apologies if I broke some MN super policy about all points relevant to a particular topic meeting to be in one post - I'd just assumed people had the mental capacity to string relevant discussion posts together rather than treating every single post as a separate element in its own write. Will make a mental note for the future 👍

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ExpectMore · 09/12/2022 16:43

Grimchmas · 08/12/2022 14:01

Hungrycaterpillarsmummy

I don't think you've been paying attention to what's been happening to the lowest paid workers pay for years, and where this last few years of inflation has come from.

When the highest in the chains of command take below the rate of inflation pay rises for the same number of years, maybe then it will be tolerated better.

Our politicians consistently give themselves many times the rate of inflation pay increases year on year. The house of Lords votes to not even switch to a cheaper brand of champagne for their jollies ffs, while postal workers, NHS and all the rest of us struggle to survive on salaries that were once considered decent enough to live on. It's not even just the lowest paid workers any more, it's the middle, too.

@Grimchmas

Our politicians consistently give themselves many times the rate of inflation pay increases year on year

I'm not sure this is correct - what source of data are you using to substantiate this claim?

I ask as if you look at MP salaries in 2010 (£65,738), they should now be £94,005 if they had had inflation linked pay rises.

They are however £84,144 (following an April 2022 below inflation pay rise of 2.7%).

Your statement just isn't true - unless I'm missing something?

Photos attached show historic MP salaries and the calculation of £94,005.

I fear you may be forgetting fact and creating fiction...



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Soothsayer1 · 09/12/2022 17:34

It's also not a clear cut discussion: what's necessary for an individual also needs to take account of their broader life choices[.....] again is why an arbitrary figure of inflation + x% is rubbish (and why individuals have a part to play in balancing money in with money out)
@ExpectMore but people are leaving in droves because the pay doesnt compensate for the stress of the job, we have unfilled essential roles, banning strikes doesnt solve that problem

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ExpectMore · 09/12/2022 17:37

Soothsayer1 · 09/12/2022 17:34

It's also not a clear cut discussion: what's necessary for an individual also needs to take account of their broader life choices[.....] again is why an arbitrary figure of inflation + x% is rubbish (and why individuals have a part to play in balancing money in with money out)
@ExpectMore but people are leaving in droves because the pay doesnt compensate for the stress of the job, we have unfilled essential roles, banning strikes doesnt solve that problem

I didn't say it did. But it does stop the problem of an already short staffed nhs having even less labour.

The solution is to work through the problem together. Not hold the country to ransom and cause vulnerable people to suffer as a result of striking.

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carefulcalculator · 09/12/2022 17:39

ExpectMore · 09/12/2022 17:37

I didn't say it did. But it does stop the problem of an already short staffed nhs having even less labour.

The solution is to work through the problem together. Not hold the country to ransom and cause vulnerable people to suffer as a result of striking.

Biscuit for parroting the Tory bollocks about 'holding the country to ransom'. It is the Tory party holding the country to ransom.

They have billions to give out in dodgy contracts, but won't pay NHS staff fairly.

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MissyB1 · 09/12/2022 17:40

ExpectMore · 09/12/2022 17:37

I didn't say it did. But it does stop the problem of an already short staffed nhs having even less labour.

The solution is to work through the problem together. Not hold the country to ransom and cause vulnerable people to suffer as a result of striking.

The unions are trying to work with the Government! The Government could stop the strikes they just have to listen! This is a last resort for healthcare workers, they don’t strike willy nilly!

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ExpectMore · 09/12/2022 17:45

@MissyB1

The unions are trying to work with the Government! The Government could stop the strikes they just have to listen!

That's not quite what I meant by working through the solution together... "just do as I want and it's all over" isn't quite a collaborative solution....!

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TooBigForMyBoots · 09/12/2022 17:49

The problem is not that there's no magic money tree @ExpectMore. The problem is this shambolic, chaotic, corrupt Tory government, their arrogance and their incompetence. They wrecked NHS, the economy, the Justice system and the rest of the UK.

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Livinginanotherworld · 09/12/2022 17:49

Hungrycaterpillarsmummy · 08/12/2022 13:33

Im fed up of the strikes. People applied and got jobs knowing their salary.

It's like every single sector is now deciding to strike and guess what happens? We pay the price of that.
With the cost of living how can we cover the costs of companies increasing the costs of goods and services (which they will do to cover the increased salaries).
If all public sector workers got a pay increase in line with inflation it would cost every single UK household £1000 a year. This was on the news last night.

I don't think people fully think through the consequences of higher salaries. Either a company will reduce their workforce to pay for the increase, or they will increase the cost to you.

Tell me you’re Tory without telling me you’re a Tory…….
……Obviously in the same ivory tower as the rest of them.

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Alexandra2001 · 09/12/2022 17:53

The solution is to work through the problem together. Not hold the country to ransom and cause vulnerable people to suffer as a result of striking

The RCN & UNISON have been trying to talk to the Govt about pay and staffing for the last 10 years... the Tories have been obsessed with Brexit and leadership contests to care.. even after the trials of Covid, they offered nhs staff 1% and tried to pre empt the pay review body.. so exactly how much more "working together" do you want?

People need to realise the Cons are not interested in a well funded, well managed and efficient NHS, they want it gone.. an AE service only, they see it as a socialist construct, much like the Unions in that regard and want both consigned to the history books.

Currently, the NHS is not on strike, despite this 200 people a week die needlessly..10s of 1000s wait for hours in extreme pain for treatment... its the Govt & Hunt that are causing harm to vulnerable people.. not NHS workers....

For context - Every day my DD tells me of so many tales of suffering caused by not enough staff, no breaks, long days, no social care, no equipment, delays in discharge, new patients jammed in anywhere and limited diagnostics (no staff again)... its shocking.

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