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Politics

Rishi Sunak is working on tough new anti-strike laws

258 replies

Emotionalsupportviper · 08/12/2022 12:21

We don't have a government in this country any more.

We have a dictatorship.

OP posts:
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Notonthestairs · 10/12/2022 11:15

The Independent pay review bodies set pay increases much earlier this year.
Inflation was something like 5.5% at the start of the year.
Now it's around 11%.

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Notonthestairs · 10/12/2022 11:20

It's not misleading. Your argument seems to have changed - now MP do get higher % hikes but that's because they all get the same from day one.

Of course they actually get more depending on their committee commitments.

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ExpectMore · 10/12/2022 11:21

Notonthestairs · 10/12/2022 11:15

The Independent pay review bodies set pay increases much earlier this year.
Inflation was something like 5.5% at the start of the year.
Now it's around 11%.

Agreed. But the cyclical nature should catch it up to some extent eg next year it'll be based on this years data whereas actual inflation next year might be lower.

It agree that it's not however a perfect system!

In part that's why I have an issue with people wanting "inflationary" or "inflationary +" pay rises, particularly as the level of "inflation" an individual actually experiences is dependent on their specific circumstances

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ExpectMore · 10/12/2022 11:22

Notonthestairs · 10/12/2022 11:20

It's not misleading. Your argument seems to have changed - now MP do get higher % hikes but that's because they all get the same from day one.

Of course they actually get more depending on their committee commitments.

Of course they actually get more depending on their committee commitments.

As do those in other professions that take on additional responsibility? Head of year or SEN lead for example?

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Notonthestairs · 10/12/2022 11:32

I do not think the argument that MPs get a set salary regardless of their performance or attendance in the HoC - second job in the Caribbean (Cox), going to the jungle (Hancock) or taking paying speech engagements and holidays in Singapore & US (Johnson) - is particularly winning.

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ExpectMore · 10/12/2022 11:36

Notonthestairs · 10/12/2022 11:32

I do not think the argument that MPs get a set salary regardless of their performance or attendance in the HoC - second job in the Caribbean (Cox), going to the jungle (Hancock) or taking paying speech engagements and holidays in Singapore & US (Johnson) - is particularly winning.

I agree that MPs shouldn't be allowed to have second jobs (with no exceptions).

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ArcticSkewer · 10/12/2022 11:51

Take a good look at the connections between rich people and those in government. It is a one way siphon of money from the poor (ie all taxpayers) to the super rich and well connected.

Politicians exist to help them make money, that's why they are put in power.

Don't expect anyone to then believe their boohoo crying about not being able to pay nurses.

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Miajk · 10/12/2022 11:55

Notonthestairs · 10/12/2022 11:20

It's not misleading. Your argument seems to have changed - now MP do get higher % hikes but that's because they all get the same from day one.

Of course they actually get more depending on their committee commitments.

Tbh there's no point even bothering with ExpectMore as they are only interested in spreading the idea of "no infinite money tree" and make up "facts" to support the idea that we somehow couldn't afford to pay nurses more (but can spend an obscene amount of money to pay agency nurses for shifts).

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ArcticSkewer · 10/12/2022 12:00

My son asked to borrow money last week for his bills as he was just soooooooo poor

You know what undermined his argument?

He'd just bought a brand new shiny car for himself and was going on holiday next week.

It's kinda like that ..

I didn't fall for his claims of poverty then, and I'm not believing it now from my sad government who just have nooooooo money to pay the nurses

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Soothsayer1 · 10/12/2022 12:07

Don't expect anyone to then believe their boohoo crying about not being able to pay nurses
It is true though, they can't give money to the nurses because to them it's much more important to keep giving money to the rich, they pretend to care about the people to keep them sweet so that enough of them are deferential enough to keep voting for them. But their goal is to make themselves and people like them as rich as possible and naturally the poor people will have to take the hit for that.... because they are just poor people who don't matter!

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Soothsayer1 · 10/12/2022 12:10

Politicians exist to help them make money, that's why they are put in power
Yes!
imagine that there's one tank containing the wealth generated by people who do the essential work in the country, politicians come along with big long tubes and syphon that wealth out and into the tanks owned and controlled by the wealthy and Powerful.

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ExpectMore · 10/12/2022 12:11

Soothsayer1 · 10/12/2022 12:07

Don't expect anyone to then believe their boohoo crying about not being able to pay nurses
It is true though, they can't give money to the nurses because to them it's much more important to keep giving money to the rich, they pretend to care about the people to keep them sweet so that enough of them are deferential enough to keep voting for them. But their goal is to make themselves and people like them as rich as possible and naturally the poor people will have to take the hit for that.... because they are just poor people who don't matter!

Another conspiracy theory!

Have you ever read the book "games people play"?

I'd highly recommend it.

One key point of it is how people often invent stories that they play over and over again that justifies their own short comings...

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RosesAndHellebores · 10/12/2022 12:16

The proportions required to carry a strike vote are deeply flawed. They are based on the percentage of the membership voting which takes into account the no votes. If the no voters abstained the motion would not be carried. I don't think the unions share that with their members so I question who meets the definition of a dictatorship to be fair.

Every NHS employee I meet tells me the NHS is marvellous. And yet they are striking due to their pay but dressing it up as being about patient care. Surely it can't be both. I'd have more time if there were more honesty.

Train drivers on £60k, Lecturers on £50k with generous hols, fantastic pensions and sick pay.

Reaches for mop for bleeding heart.

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Notonthestairs · 10/12/2022 12:20

The argument seems to be certain sectors must have their right to strike withdrawn because they are critical to running of the country.

But they are not so critical as to need their wages to track inflation for the last decade.

We shouldnt rely on nurses having a vocation - we should be making that job as attractive as possible to attract staff and - as importantly - retain them (because as we have already established they are critical to the future of the country).

The Government can find money to pay off DUP in NI, to repurpose and repaint a trade plane, to order a new royal yacht, have a festival of Brexit, send nonrefundable £110 million to Rwanda etc etc.
They can find it when £££ when it suits their political aims.

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ExpectMore · 10/12/2022 12:30

This reply has been withdrawn

This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

ExpectMore · 10/12/2022 12:31

RosesAndHellebores · 10/12/2022 12:16

The proportions required to carry a strike vote are deeply flawed. They are based on the percentage of the membership voting which takes into account the no votes. If the no voters abstained the motion would not be carried. I don't think the unions share that with their members so I question who meets the definition of a dictatorship to be fair.

Every NHS employee I meet tells me the NHS is marvellous. And yet they are striking due to their pay but dressing it up as being about patient care. Surely it can't be both. I'd have more time if there were more honesty.

Train drivers on £60k, Lecturers on £50k with generous hols, fantastic pensions and sick pay.

Reaches for mop for bleeding heart.

👏

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ExpectMore · 10/12/2022 12:32

Notonthestairs · 10/12/2022 12:20

The argument seems to be certain sectors must have their right to strike withdrawn because they are critical to running of the country.

But they are not so critical as to need their wages to track inflation for the last decade.

We shouldnt rely on nurses having a vocation - we should be making that job as attractive as possible to attract staff and - as importantly - retain them (because as we have already established they are critical to the future of the country).

The Government can find money to pay off DUP in NI, to repurpose and repaint a trade plane, to order a new royal yacht, have a festival of Brexit, send nonrefundable £110 million to Rwanda etc etc.
They can find it when £££ when it suits their political aims.

Sorry - I replied to the wrong comment!

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Notonthestairs · 10/12/2022 12:34

Yes I guessed you werent applauding my post.

Train drivers arent on strike.

Trade unions have to follow highly prescriptive processes laid out in legislation brought in by the Government of the day. The last round of applicable legislation was introduced in 2017 by the Conservatives.

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longwayoff · 10/12/2022 13:13

But i am Notonthestairs👏👏👏

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Alexandra2001 · 10/12/2022 13:38

Every NHS employee I meet tells me the NHS is marvellous. And yet they are striking due to their pay but dressing it up as being about patient care. Surely it can't be both. I'd have more time if there were more honesty

Really? never ever heard that.. not for years, my mum was a nurse my DD a AHP.

My DD and her friends say its chaotic, failing and patient safety has fallen through the floor... staff are leaving and yet the problems are due to "Greedy Unions" FFS .. Unions are the nurses... they are the people doing the work... so what your really doing is calling nurses "greedy" and "selfish"

Actually, i do agree with @ExpectMore with her belief that the instead of strikes people should resign.. correct and thats why the NHS has over 110k vacancies.. folk are voting with their feet and i say Well Done!

People need to see the reality of their voting choices over the years.

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KnittedCardi · 10/12/2022 15:50

So much grievance is a local level though. Not all trusts are striking, and not all trusts are in a terrible state. You only have to look at comparison tables. So some trusts are obviously run better than others, we have known that for some time. They manage their budgets better, and get better results with what they have. Some of that is demographics, age and poverty, but much is not.

Where we are now, this minute, is because we have failed to have a joined up system between NHS and social care. Those trusts who are trialling shared budgets are finding results are improving. Also, the NHS shut down pretty much entirely during Covid, no other healthcare system in the world did that. Again, bad decisions, bad organisation.

On staffing, the entire world has a nursing shortage. Every major economy is fighting for a small pool of staff. I think we have to accept that pay has to go up to attract and retain staff, but also, someone, somewhere needs to get an effing grip. The money is now there, but the performance hasn't improved. It is not even up to where it was pre-Covid let alone increasing capacity.

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ExpectMore · 10/12/2022 16:04

KnittedCardi · 10/12/2022 15:50

So much grievance is a local level though. Not all trusts are striking, and not all trusts are in a terrible state. You only have to look at comparison tables. So some trusts are obviously run better than others, we have known that for some time. They manage their budgets better, and get better results with what they have. Some of that is demographics, age and poverty, but much is not.

Where we are now, this minute, is because we have failed to have a joined up system between NHS and social care. Those trusts who are trialling shared budgets are finding results are improving. Also, the NHS shut down pretty much entirely during Covid, no other healthcare system in the world did that. Again, bad decisions, bad organisation.

On staffing, the entire world has a nursing shortage. Every major economy is fighting for a small pool of staff. I think we have to accept that pay has to go up to attract and retain staff, but also, someone, somewhere needs to get an effing grip. The money is now there, but the performance hasn't improved. It is not even up to where it was pre-Covid let alone increasing capacity.

Very good points!

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Notonthestairs · 10/12/2022 16:18

I imagine having vast numbers of vacant Dr & Nursing posts might have something to do with performance.
Retention of staff in healthcare has been at crisis point for years. There has been a huge failure in workforce planning over the last decade.

The Workforce: recruitment, training and retention report outlines the scale of the workforce crisis: new research suggests the NHS in England is short of 12,000 hospital doctors and more than 50,000 nurses and midwives; evidence on workforce projections say an extra 475,000 jobs will be needed in health and an extra 490,000 jobs in social care by the early part of the next decade; hospital waiting lists reached a record high of nearly 6.5 million in April. The report finds the Government to have shown a marked reluctance to act decisively. The refusal to do proper workforce planning risked plans to tackle the Covid backlog - a key target for the NHS.
The number of full-time equivalent GPs fell by more than 700 over three years to March 2022, despite a pledge to deliver 6,000 more. Appearing before the inquiry, the then Secretary of State Sajid Javid admitted he was not on track to deliver them.

committees.parliament.uk/committee/81/health-and-social-care-committee/news/172310/persistent-understaffing-of-nhs-a-serious-risk-to-patient-safety-warn-mps/

Persistent understaffing in the NHS poses a serious risk to staff and patient safety, a situation compounded by the absence of a long term plan by the government to tackle it.
“We now face the greatest workforce crisis in history in the NHS and in social care with still no idea of the number of additional doctors, nurses and other professionals we actually need. NHS professionals know there is no silver bullet to solve this problem but we should at least be giving them comfort that a plan is in place. This must be a top priority for the new Prime Minister.”
Jeremy Hunt.

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RosesAndHellebores · 10/12/2022 16:28

Excellent points @KnittedCardi
I hear what you say there @Notonthestairs however at the HCA, care assistant and nursing levels to an extent I suspect some of the structural issues around claiming universal crsot are to blame. Something has to be done about the 16 hour rule that prevents those able to and qualified to work from working more. There need urgently to be initiatives that stop this. If people in shortage occupations are turning down work their benefits need to cease.

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Notonthestairs · 10/12/2022 16:32

Possibly Roses. Although it might be those HCA are limited in what work they can do due to other responsibilities (adequate affordable childcare outside of ordinary working hours for example).

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