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Politics

Please can someone explain? Will we pay if we leave EU without a deal?

580 replies

HappydaysArehere · 17/10/2017 19:53

With all this talk of billions of pounds which we are supposed to owe if we leave and talk of continuing to pay after we leave, I am in the dark. If we walk away with no deal will we pay anything like the amounts talked about? If we are able to do that surely the EU will be big losers as well as us! I am at a loss. Grateful for your input as I am bewildered. I voted to remain but must say the shenanigans being played by the EU are showing them as more like the Mafia than a democratic institution.

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GhostofFrankGrimes · 13/11/2017 19:57

What happened to our press?

Nothing its always been predominately shit. The Mail inparticular has a murky past.

ChardonnaysPrettySister · 13/11/2017 19:58

So apparently if we leave without a deal we won't be able to take our pets to Europe, Mr Barnier says, just to add insult to injury.

I hate Brexit.
Hate it.
Hate it.

OliviaD68 · 13/11/2017 20:04

@ChardonnaysPrettySister

Barnier is correct.

It has to do with regulatory standards. We will need to be able to PROVE that inoculations and pet health standards would be according to EU standards. Without regulatory equivalence this becomes impossible: the UK won't set up a body for that. Even if it did, the EU won't do it or would quarantine your pet ...

We make choices; they have consequences.

mummmy2017 · 13/11/2017 21:59

You did see the report about the BBC and it's 75% bias to Remain, they were crying in the newsroom in shock when we voted Leave, you have to understand that sometimes you can't explain why you did something, just that the fact so many people agreed with me and voted out has to mean something, we can't all be wrong, even if the ones who voted remain can't accept that.

Also if there is so much anti EU, there is no smoke without fire.

The sheer amount of Expenses, that are not accountable, that's wrong, and once we are gone, the gravy train will have to stop, as they won't have the cash to flash anymore, the MEP's should be there to help the countries not to line their pockets, almost every MEP is now a Millionaire, they have no accountability to anyone, and voted to continue this, yet when it was the house of Lords being brought to book over expenses, there were threads on here about how corrupt this was.
The EU has 2 parliament buildings and moves between both at massive costs, there is no real need for this, it's just one heck of a cost.
The UK farmers are paid Not to farm, the French are paid extra to farm, hmmm.
The rich are paid massive amounts for the above, yet the small farmers who would become profitable with more help just go out of business.
Fishing, we signed over the seas, and yet we catch fish, it dies and could be landed and used, but no the budget.. is set, so it's wasted and chucked back, that is so wrong.
The protective tarrifs are keeping food prices high, so the farmers make money and the poor suffer.

ChardonnaysPrettySister · 13/11/2017 22:01

He might be correct but he's a bloody bastard.
Along with every single Brexiteer.

OliviaD68 · 14/11/2017 09:58

@mummmy2017

You did see the report about the BBC and it's 75% bias to Remain, they were crying in the newsroom in shock when we voted Leave, you have to understand that sometimes you can't explain why you did something, just that the fact so many people agreed with me and voted out has to mean something, we can't all be wrong, even if the ones who voted remain can't accept that.

There are plenty of instances in history when entire populations have been wrong! Communism didn't work out great. Nazism either ...

So just because 52% of voters decided Brexit was a good thing - based on incomplete information - doesn't mean it is right.

And I'm not comparing Brexit to Communism or Nazism just pointing out that entire populations can have it wrong so we need to make up our own minds based on the facts.

Also if there is so much anti EU, there is no smoke without fire.

So you agree you did not know specifically why you voted Leave?

The sheer amount of Expenses, that are not accountable, that's wrong, and once we are gone, the gravy train will have to stop, as they won't have the cash to flash anymore,

Please point to such expenses and how you believe expenditures work in the EU.

the MEP's should be there to help the countries not to line their pockets, almost every MEP is now a Millionaire,

Really? Farage might be for who knows what reason. But do you know how much an MEP earns? Around €8000 per month. How do you become a millionaire from that?

they have no accountability to anyone, and voted to continue this, yet when it was the house of Lords being brought to book over expenses, there were threads on here about how corrupt this was.

Sorry but they are accountable. Why do you think they are not?

The EU has 2 parliament buildings and moves between both at massive costs, there is no real need for this, it's just one heck of a cost.

Huh? Assuming each building cost €1 billion each 1 years ago, who cares? Rounding error relative to an economic area of 500 million people.

The UK farmers are paid Not to farm, the French are paid extra to farm, hmmm.

Where does this come from? please point me to a source. Far as I know UK farmers are farming.

The rich are paid massive amounts for the above, yet the small farmers who would become profitable with more help just go out of business.

I agree there are scale economies necessary to be successful in agriculture. It's the market economy we are in. Larger farms tend to have lower average costs which allow them to sell their goods at lower prices, so good for the consumer.Smaller farmers can't compete as well that's true.

But that's true of most industries which are commoditised. I'd rather have that than the inefficiency of Soviet central planning.

Fishing, we signed over the seas, and yet we catch fish, it dies and could be landed and used, but no the budget.. is set, so it's wasted and chucked back, that is so wrong.

Don't know what this means.

The protective tarrifs are keeping food prices high, so the farmers make money and the poor suffer.

Well it is true that protectionism does raise costs. Agree with you there. But it's not just tariffs, it's agri policy and sanitary and phytosanitary standards which we benefit from.

mummmy2017 · 14/11/2017 10:14

www.independent.co.uk/environment/golf-courses-farming-subsidies-allotments-michael-gove-environment-secretary-cap-eu-wealthy-a7853741.html

www.theguardian.com/world/2017/aug/09/european-commission-criticised-over-limited-expenses-disclosure

Try watching some programs about fishing, they pull in the nets, and because of the Quota per boat, fish that could be sold is thrown back, and it feeds the gulls who follow the boat, what a waste.

news.sky.com/story/meps-on-the-move-madness-of-strasbourg-shift-10293596

MEPs also get a daily subsistence allowance - now 304 euros - for attendance at parliamentary sessions. It is intended to cover things like hotel bills and meals. DAILY, so they buy a house and still claim this. Can I have over £250 a day please... no receipts needed....

mummmy2017 · 14/11/2017 10:21

@OliviaD68
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/eu-farming-subsidies-billionaires-high-uk-rich-list-recipients-brexit-james-dyson-earl-rosebery-cap-a7815871.html

I have used the papers that are not Dailymail, or Express as they hype things up, but the Indi is one always quoted here.

OliviaD68 · 14/11/2017 10:28

@mummmy2017

All I can say is ‘so what’? If you want that run to be an MEP. Or mount a protest. It’s chicken feed in the overall scheme of things.

I would not be willing to risk my house and my income because I’m jealous of MEPs.

Unfortunately this is where we are coming out. David Davis is too intellectually deficient and lazy to work on developing a comprehensive roadmap out of the EU. Note I did not say a “deal” because it’s much more complicated than “a deal.” So we are headed for a disaster. Or a complete abandonment. I increasingly think the outcome is binary. We stay or we accidentally crash out.

In my mind: keep paying the MEPs and avoid disaster.

OliviaD68 · 14/11/2017 10:31

@mummmy2017

And James Dyson wants us out so he can fire people more easily and hopefully pay lower taxes - zero percent he said. Sounds like tax avoidance/ evasion to me !

mummmy2017 · 14/11/2017 13:40

Olivia you just proved the point of all Brexiters, we are worried about the fraud, and the misuse of the money we pay into the system called the EU. it's not pennies it's Billions of pounds being misused.

Get real about being jealous of the wages paid the MEP's I know 100% I will never have this job, and if that is how you dismiss a valid reason for my wanting out of the EU, it proves we were right all along.

mummmy2017 · 14/11/2017 13:44

David Davis is simply the figure head of the staff, he isn't sat there with his pen paper and calculator working out the details, and don't get me started on just WHY the corrupt EU have no idea of how much they want us to pay and are just Guessing and doing a Brucie and saying "HIGHER" we are not a blank cheque the EU can call on for ever, NO DEAL still sounds good to me.
Lets leave, say sod you and work from the point the EU go OH F* can we sit down and talk. as we need X Y and Z off you.

GhostofFrankGrimes · 14/11/2017 13:48

Mummy, how about the government release the impact assessment reports? Someone sat down with a calculator and pen I suspect it’s grim reading!

RagingFemininist · 14/11/2017 13:57

If the it’s the U.K. who is taking the decision to leave, surely that up to th U.K. to say HOW they are going to leave, incl giving proposals for how much to pay, EU citizens living in the U.K. and the border with NI.

I also thought it was a matter of negotiations.
So even if the EU was saying we want £xxx, then the U.K. wouod then be saying ‘well not that much. But £yyy’.
So as far as I can see, thenUK said £yyy and it was rejected. Just like any other negociations? (That’s why that sort of things takes time btw)
Just as a proposal from the EU would be too.

What a negotiation isn’t is the U.K. proposing a certain amount and the EU saying yes straight away.

CardinalSin · 14/11/2017 14:18

"BBC and it's 75% bias to Remain"

Only one report has claimed that, and the organisation that produced it, News-Watch, is an anti-EU and anti-BBC group.

Obviously the Express and Mail reported it without mentioning this...

CardinalSin · 14/11/2017 14:20

Indeed, it's even funded by Leave.EU!

mummmy2017 · 14/11/2017 14:21

actually when you buy a buisness the accounts give details of how much its worth and how much someone should pay.

mummmy2017 · 14/11/2017 14:24

Do you work out how much the EU is worth and split it by
28 members.
by land mass.
by polulation.
by how much we pay

OliviaD68 · 14/11/2017 14:43

@mummmy2017 and @RagingFemininist

I’m afraid there’s a lot I disagree with in what you say.

Firstly you claim that corruption in Brussels amounts to £billions. Can you prove it? I’m sure there is corruption but there’s no way to put a number in it. There are anti corruption measures however.

My point is: corruption will happen in Brussels and Westminster. Just a fact of life.

Also if corruption is so rife what are U.K. and other politicians doing to address it? I blame our politicians and our MEPs for letting it happen.

Second there seems to be this idea that the UK can dictate the terms of the negotiation to and entity that is eight times our size, has said it cares more about its principles than anything else, is organised and is competent.

Against this backdrop the U.K. does not know what it wants from the EU, does not understand the A50 process, is much smalller, more dependent on the EU than vice versa. Finally the U.K. government is completely inexperienced- it knows nothing about trade or any of the other issues that need to be resolved to extricate the U.K. from the EU.

Example: Irish border. If we leave the SM/CU there will be a hard Irish border. It is inconceivable otherwise. Yet Davis is intent on selling us a porky pie that it is. So he’s either really stupid or knows we are.

In sum there is NO WAY that the U.K. can dictate terms to the EU. saying so merely highlights the ignorance about our position vs the EU’s.

OliviaD68 · 14/11/2017 14:48

@mummmy2017

I’m sorry I don’t understand what you’re talking about in terms of value.

And no, you can’t determine what a company is worth from its financial statements alone as these are backward looking and a company’s value is forward looking.

OliviaD68 · 14/11/2017 15:54

@mummmy2017

So I've been looking into corruption in Brussels. There are mechanisms in Brussels to look into the function of the European Commission and various EU28 countries. The European Court of Auditors and the European Anti-Fraud Office are the two main bodies. They are both independent.

I see nothing to indicate that there is corruption at the EC in the billions as accused.

I do see a lot of reports into corruption within the EU28 however.There is clearly a lot of work to do, even for the UK.

Can you point to a document that would indicate corruption at the European Commission or the European Parliament in the billions?

mummmy2017 · 14/11/2017 23:17

751 MEP. X £250 a day expenses, x 40 weeks x 6 days...

45 Million a year, that NO ONE has to account for....
This is for housing a food , there are also other expenses they can claim, do you spend 60k with no receipts,

Just how many years has the EU be doing this ,,

MP's now have to publish their expenses... oh lets see the MEP:S voted against doing this,,, I wonder why

Let alone the private planes, the special ones uses...

Corruption... that we can see, so there will be much more behind the scene's.

The UK are not dictating the terms, have you not read the EU saying give us more money, we won't tell you what it is for yet, we just want more. truth to tell would you hand over such large amounts if it was coming out of your bank without knowing what it was for.

shhhfastasleep · 15/11/2017 06:07

So some MEP from, e.g. Romania just makes her own way to Brussels and represents her constituency using her own money.

Melassa · 15/11/2017 07:16

Lol. Cos Westminster MPs don't claim expenses. The alleged corruption in Brussels is a diversion.

Not heard about ATAD? It's probably the reason this whole sorry shitshow was set up. Once the anti tax avoidance directive comes into effect (in April 2019) it would be extremely expensive for a lot of the Brexit bankrollers and proponents and Tory donors. I would even have said embarrassing but none of them appear to have any shame whatsoever. Look at John Redwood.

OliviaD68 · 15/11/2017 08:14

@mummmy2017

The 45 million is not corruption. It’s part of a remuneration package. It’s publicly available information. And many companies do this - it’s called a per diem. It avoids having to have an expense policy and review lots of small receipts and make payments which requires personnel.

It’s interesting you would countenance damaging swathes of UK industry for what you consider is corruption and is plainly not.

So can we conclude that you wish to leave the EU because you are unhappy with the £250 per diem granted to MEPs?

Anything else?

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