Second EU referendum. How would you vote?

[JasAnglia94]

Sorry if this has been asked before.

I hear this statement made over and over again - that people would "vote differently if we had a EU referendum today". Would you though?

I was REALLY on the fence re. the referendum. I'm 23 and from a comfortable middle-class background.

In short, I think there is a surplus of people competing for jobs - both at graduate and service level - and that the situation is exasperated by free movement. I also think the problem of housing is made worse by free movement; that there isn't enough housing for people at the middle-lower end of the pay scale and that the number of people in this bracket is ever increasing.

However, I voted to remain last minute (after much persuasion). This was due to economic and environmental reasons. I don't trust the current government with environmental policy and I don't think price rises and fewer jobs (or jobs at lower pay) will help people like me.

Would I vote differently now? No. However, I would definitely be more on the remain side than the leave (e.g. my shopping bill depresses me!).

Was anyone else who was on the fence vote differently now?

@Rufustherenegadereindeer1

Arse or elbow. He don’t know da difference.

Let’s see if this macho man can come up with the goods.

@TheElementsSong

Weird isn’t it?

Only thing I can think of is they can’t explain why Brexit should move ahead and are therefore angry.

Probably the micro gram of good sense they still have is nagging ...

theelements

Thats very thoughtful of you...always thinking the health of others

Admirable

olivia

I doubt they will be back

After all they said 'period' which is like 'fact'

At the end of a post...no room for argument there!!

I did not vote last time. Definitely for Brexit now. The EU beaurocrats have behaved aboninably. Typical of those who do not have to answer to an electorate. Our economy is growing and doing well. Better than most in the EU. EU needs to understand it needs massive reform and become much more democratic. The EU needs the UK market as much as we need the EU. Time we dictated terms and told them to like it or lump it!

@Rufustherenegadereindeer1

Quod erat demonstrandum? Yep. That’s it. They have pronounced themselves therefore we will just assume they are on point.

Like good submissive little women that we are.

Blowhard dotards.

I’m still hopeful I find the one Brexiteer who will give us a run. Like the quest for the Holy Grail ??

Well floods has just popped his head over the parapet

Hey @Floods123:

Our economy is growing and doing well. Better than most in the EU.

The UK is the slowest growing economy in the EU28. Fact.

EU needs to understand it needs massive reform and become much more democratic.

Agree. But leaving is not how this gets done.

The EU needs the UK market as much as we need the EU.

Uh, the EU is 50% of our trade in goods. And Similar in services (I think). Financial services are important to the UK for example ... 8% of GDP.

EU’s trade with UK is 8%.

Come again?

Time we dictated terms and told them to like it or lump it!

Not by a long shot. We are deal takers not deal makers. If we lump it, be prepared to lose a lot economically.

I'd leave again - and had I been old enough to vote originally to join the EEC I'd have said no. I've always thought it was wrong. And I think there's other countries who would also leave if they could. I've never understood how 27 countries with 27 different perspectives and economies could ever live under one roof.

Olivia this is just a site for predominantly parents, something on here over the course of the last 18 months must have really got under your skin. So much so that you want to keep coming back to pick at the scab. Just waiting for you to get another ban so that we can then continue to have debates that don’t use the words ‘Brexitards’ etc. It’s time to move on (like a lot of us already have).

Voted remain. Would vote remain again.

Leave

@time4chocolate

Not sure I agree about moving one.

Or that others in this country do either as this graph demonstrates ...

It is clearly not too late to abandon a silly project once the facts become apparent or even change. It's fine to make mistakes but not fine to let them get bigger.

I will happily continue to pick at the scab if it contributes to debate and, however small my involvement, helps save this country from significant economic damage.

OliviaD68......Clearly you have all the answers, just one small thing, the UK voted out....now I know that's a fact that you and some others find difficult to accept. Picking a scab over and over can lead to infection eventualy. May be better to go with the majority and let the gov get on with it. If this really is to difficult for you, I suggest you apply to be elected, maybe even become PM eventually. Then you will have a modicom of power to save us all. Yipee.

It is clearly not too late to abandon a silly project once the facts become apparent or even change

But what are the cast iron, guaranteed to happen facts? I have opened up so many links prepared to give them a read and too many say, ‘could happen’ ‘might happen’ ‘considering’ ‘maybe’. If we all based our decisions on what might happen no-one would step outside their own front door.

The only cast iron fact that cannot be disputed is we had a referendum and the result was to leave, that you can’t argue with. I can’t be doing with reading reams of what amounts to speculation and assumptions.

With regard to a re-run of the referendum, when would be the right time to do that? Next week, next month, six months or at some point when the outcome would be more favourable to the other side.

For what it’s worth I can’t see the outcome being any different.

​*@Pensionista*

Thanks for joining in.

I don’t have all the answers. I’m in a regular search for them. Which is why I would enjoy a good debate on Brexit to ensure my views are well founded. To date I have not had anyone present a good reason to leave other than perhaps blue passports (which I do admit look better) and ill-founded emotive reasoning about sovereignty.

Now it is a fact the UK citizens voted to leave. You are correct. I’m not denying that. Nor will I bring into this the lies and possible help of Papi Putin's Twitter and Facebook bots as neither really helps to reverse this silly vote.

So we are now left with moving into a disaster or fighting to reverse. I choose to fight.

And ... factually ... because we are a democracy we can change our minds. Perhaps you recognise this fellow ...?

I would hope that the democratic choice of the people doesn't revert to convenience - ie what suits Brexit.

Time will tell if the recent change of heart of the British people holds and even strengthens. We are not there yet, but our esteemed government is certainly helping via mismanagement to put a halt on this Monty Pythonesque project.

Nor will I bring into this the lies and possible help of Papi Putin's Twitter and Facebook

According to graphs regularly posted on this board, we are led to believe that the majority of people who voted to leave were in the more senior age bracket, therefore, Papi Putins input through Facebook and Twitter would be of little relevance/impact.

Time will tell if the recent change of heart of the British people holds and even strengthens

But what/where is this change of heart of the British people that you speak of.

OliviaD68....your welcome. Just to be clear I voted to stay in, however I now accept the fact we are leaving. No one and I mean No one knows what is going to happen. I do know that it's counter productive to keep banging away about 'it' being a big mistake. I also think regardless of the consequences we can't keep having other referendoms until the losers get what 'they 'wanted. If you scroll back through this post I gave specific reasons why we should just get on with it, and I can't be bothered to repeat them over again. We are a very resourceful Nation and whatever happens we have enough talent in the UK to become sucessful. Personaly 'if' there was another referendom I would now vote out. I am not in favour of a federal europe, with one currency and ruled by a government I had no say in electing. This would Never work as all the eu economies and cultures are completey different in they'r needs. Our gov is not that great at the moment but it sure is better imo than junker and his cronies.

@time4chocolate

Good name btw. Never a bad time for it ...

You raise some good points.

But what are the cast iron, guaranteed to happen facts? I have opened up so many links prepared to give them a read and too many say, ‘could happen’ ‘might happen’ ‘considering’ ‘maybe’. If we all based our decisions on what might happen no-one would step outside their own front door.

None. No guarantees Brexit will be a success either.

So in my view we can only scenario test based on what could happen. There aren't that many possible outcomes. And we have existing models of the way things happen elsewhere. Trade does happen on more painful terms than the frictionless Single Market so we can look at those examples. We would not be that different.

And frankly it's easy to compare to what we currently have. If you know the scenarios deliver less than what we have, then the upside is all hope. Hope is not a strategy.

The scenarios I see:

• No deal WTO. Highly unlikely but possible if the EU and UK piss each other off.
• DC FTA. Unlikely given the time to arrange it but possible if we stay in the EU for another 7 or so years. Too much to do to enable this in the short term given the barriers to trade that need to be erected.
• EEA membership. Quicker to do but it seems politically unsavoury because of 4 freedoms. Interestingly, the UK is an EEA member already.
• Stay in the EU.

The only cast iron fact that cannot be disputed is we had a referendum and the result was to leave, that you can’t argue with. I can’t be doing with reading reams of what amounts to speculation and assumptions.

I agree the ref took place and am not disputing the outcome, even if how we got there is suspect.

I respect the choice you make not to research. While you may think of it as speculation, I don't believe it is. There are enough established ways of doing things - models - that are live today that we can know fairly well how things would work or would not work.

I agree this takes time and can be geeky and arcane. I have chosen to take the time to understand what we have got ourselves into as a country. And I don't like it. It doesn't make any sense. Under mosst outcomes, people are going to suffer badly for what strike me as poor rationales.

With regard to a re-run of the referendum, when would be the right time to do that? Next week, next month, six months or at some point when the outcome would be more favourable to the other side.

Maybe never. The ref was advisory so Parliament can decide - as sovereign - to ignore it. A50 can be left to lapse.

But all this would take leadership and I don't see much of it in Westminster. Things can change though. Hard to divine what is going to happen especially if public sentiment changes against Brexit in a major way.

@time4chocolate

Recent polls have shown a movement where the public is now on balance regretting Brexit.

But it's too soon to be conclusive - we need a more sustained time series for that.

And to get the pols to reverse we would need to be in 60/40 territory. Long way to go. But lots of time too.

@pensionista

There are some nuggets in your message I just had to respond to ...

Just to be clear I voted to stay in, however I now accept the fact we are leaving. No one and I mean No one knows what is going to happen.

True, but we can model the outcome because we can look at how other countries do things. So I don't think we are completely blind. In fact, I think a lot is fairly clear whenever we make up our minds what we want and what the EU is willing to provide us in terms of access.

I do know that it's counter productive to keep banging away about 'it' being a big mistake.

As you know, I disagree here ...

I also think regardless of the consequences we can't keep having other referendoms until the losers get what 'they 'wanted.

True. Not about that though.

If facts change (and despite what another poster says, facts do change) or new information comes to light, my view is the British people have a right to say stop.

The attached shows that only 35% of Leavers thought we would leave the Single Market. We were reassured we would not. And now lo and behold it looks like we will. Now that's a pretty big retrade warranting a revote.

If you scroll back through this post I gave specific reasons why we should just get on with it, and I can't be bothered to repeat them over again.

I'll have a look

We are a very resourceful Nation and whatever happens we have enough talent in the UK to become sucessful.

Possibly, but no more so than Germans or French or Yanks ...So what makes us so special that we could overcome the big trade barriers of being out of the Single Market?

We're special perhaps but not that special.

Personaly 'if' there was another referendom I would now vote out. I am not in favour of a federal europe, with one currency and ruled by a government I had no say in electing.

We had a say in electing MEPs. Farage and Hannan were elected. You may not have voted but you could have!

Completely agree with you on the EURO. Stupid idea, even if great on paper, but the eurozone has little to do with the EU. Not really the same thing.

This would Never work as all the eu economies and cultures are completey different in they'r needs.

Don't see the relevance. I want to be able to buy from and sell to them without barriers. Don't care whether they speak a different language or eat stinky cheese.

Our gov is not that great at the moment but it sure is better imo than junker and his cronies.

debatable but I'll give you that one...

Whoops wrong table. Apparently can’t upload any more.

I will re-research if there is a ref on the final deal but, until then it’s a pointless exercise unless I can be given cold hard facts.

And to get the pols to reverse we would need to be in 60/40 territory. Long way to go. But lots of time too

I see you have chosen to accept your mission.

Ps. Re. Your last scenario, do you think that staying in and saying ‘sorry we have made a terrible mistake’ would still be best option for the UK?

@time4chocolate

Re your PS.:

Based on what I know, yes I do. It would be the less damaging option. It will take us four or five year to recover from the trust damage we have already inflicted. We still have advantages EU countries don't have: language, our laws, our financial system, our universities etc and people forget quickly.

But I would try to go back with changes ...

I'd try to get some agreement to restructure the EU from Merkel and Macron if I could before doing so. My guess is we would be pushing on an open door - Macron has said so himself. Don't ask me how: have not looked into it, but I take it as necessary given how many people complain about Brussels. I've had a taste myself - EC - but not enough to say what I would do.

And finally, I would insist we take Brussels seriously. We have pretty much ignored what happens in Brussels at our peril. We need to get interested because it impacts us. Mostly for the good but at times also bad. Like any government. Again, not sure how we would do this.

OliviaD68...you make some fair points, but.......I do not want my Country to model itself on France or Germany or any other Tom Dick or Harry, like Greece,or Poland, because apart from Germany all the other economies are not doing well. France is in desperate states financialy without the EU, France would be bankrupt.
At this point in time I think we are completely blind, the EU only wants whats best for the EU, fair enough, but so do we want what's best for the UK, result at this moment in time ....deadlock. we ...the pubic have no idea whatsoever what is happening behind the scenes, only what the 'media' tell us ..ha ha ha.
We have not left the single market yet...saying you think we will is not a fact....so tell me how you think that warrants a re vote ?
'The eurozone has little to do with the euro? Whaaaaat The whole of the EU is in the euro of course it's relevant, that's why Countries like France, Greece Spain etc are in deep cack.
Don't forget we give the EU 15% of the total annual funding of the EU. Thanks but no thanks.