Trump (Part 2)

[claig]

More on the meaning of Trump, the Trumpsters and Trumpism

'I have been here longer than you Claig'

I have never seen you on the Politics or In The News section apart from on my threads and anything that is anti Russian. Are you English?

Am I English? Well who knows. That's the beauty of these boards isn't it? I could be a man or a woman, English, French, Latvian or from Mars. What is your interest in the question?

'What I don't like is seeing these boards used not for reasoned debate but for foghorn propaganda.'

What you like or don't like is irrelevant. You are not the arbiter of what debate is allowed. It is not very English to shut down free speech and scream fascist, racist and Putin at posts that support Farage, Trump and know what the People's Army is.

I'm not screaming, and I am not shutting down free speech. But I will call out fascism when I see it.

'Am I English? Well who knows.'

I know, because I guessed a long time ago, and no, it doesn't matter unless you want to shut down free speech for English people who support Farage, the Peoples Army and Trump.

And I only mention "what I like" because you brought it up first b suggesting that I don't like you. Which is wrong. I don't know you. I have no idea who you are. It is only the posts that I like or dislike.

You can sing away about whatever fascists and quasi-fascists you like. Just don't expect other people to be silent about it in response. Works both ways this free speech thing.

'But I will call out fascism when I see it.'

You are obsessed with fascism. What is your problem? Are you saying Trump, the next President of the United States, is a fascist? Voted for by millions of patriotic Americans of all races.

Are you saying that all these Latinos who support Trump are actors in a "fake news" video made by a 16 year old from Macedonia?

Quit calling anyone who disagrees with you and has the right to free speech in the great, free country of England a "fascist". Go to another thread to spread your bile and leave this good humoured thread to people who want to discuss Trump and the US election. Start a thread of your own about Trump being a fascist, and indulge your anti Russian stuff there, and leave us alone.

'OhYouBadBadKitten, are you Kaija'

That's the first time I've ever been accused of sock puppeting , no I'm not, ask mn if you like. I asked out of sheer curiosity as most of us know Hans Christian Anderson as someone who wrote dark and challenging stories for children. So I was wondering why you eschewed him when you were little. I know it's a bit odd topic, but it is perfectly ok to have read children's books when you were a child!

off, not odd!

'That's the first time I've ever been accused of sock puppeting '

Sorru, OhYou, I only saw your post later, after I had already replied to Kaija asjking the same question (which turned out to be a repost of your question) so I thought you were asking the same thing again when you asked it later.

I never read Hans Christian Andersen at the time when I was young. I read some children's books about giants and Boewulf later and stuff like that. I was a great fan of Paddington Bear at the time, and I remember Sam Pig goes to Market and all those classics. I had a great encyclopaedia with lots of interesting stuff in it.

"Quit calling anyone who disagrees with you and has the right to free speech in the great, free country of England a "fascist". Go to another thread to spread your bile and leave this good humoured thread to people who want to discuss Trump and the US election"

Well this looks rather more like an attempt to shut down free speech. Thanks for showing us how it's done.

Look closely. I haven't called anyone else a fascist. It is only the very particular nature of your rhetoric that puts you near that bracket, rather more than your views.

Yes Farage and Trump are pretty much there with fascism. People vote for fascists. You cannot be so ignorant of history as not to know that.

Quit calling anyone who disagrees with you and has the right to free speech in the great, free country of England a "fascist"

You can't see the irony here?

'You can't see the irony here?'

No, because nearly everyone of Kaija's posts is about fascism, racist, white supremacism and ant Ruusian stuff.

We are told that the Daily Mail (the most widely read news source in England and the English speaking world is "fascist" and we see links to "Hurrah for teh fascists" from the 1930s), we are told that UKIP are fascists and racists and so is Trump and the American people who voted for him. We get the message, anyonne who supports Trump is a "hater", there is no need to smear us on this thread about that. There is lots of room for free speech by starting a new thread on that and seeing if anyone agrees and wants to post on it.

Debating does not equal shutting down free speech. Far from it! Debating is essential in any healthy democracy.

I think it's ok to be really alarmed at the rise of facism and the far right. After all, 25,000 different twitter accounts tweeted in celebration at the death of Jo Cox, calling her killer a hero amongst other things. Then the very same newspaper who has been a voice for so much of this anger, reports the conclusion of her trial on page 30 and manages to blame the actions of the neo-nazi on fears about immigrants.

So yes, I think it is fully correct that those of us alarmed by the rise in facism call it out. I am not going to be saying to my daughter in five years time when she asks where I was when the far right were growing rapidly 'I kept quiet because what I said offended some people'.

And the thing is, we aren't saying that everyone who supports Trump and Farage is fascist. You might like to twist it that way. What we are saying is that they are encouraging those who lean that way to grow in strength and numbers.

I loved Paddington and the Famous Five.

No, I have never said that all of Trump's supporters are racist or fascist. In fact I think I have quite explicitly said that they are not.

But I'm not going to stop challenging the narrative on this thread where Trump is a great guy with "the people's" interests at heart. Ditto Farage.

"I am not going to be saying to my daughter in five years time when she asks where I was when the far right were growing rapidly 'I kept quiet because what I said offended some people'."

Yes, this.

'I think it's ok to be really alarmed at the rise of facism and the far right. After all, 25,000 different twitter accounts tweeted in celebration at the death of Jo Cox, calling her killer a hero amongst other things. Then the very same newspaper who has been a voice for so much of this anger, reports the conclusion of her trial on page 30 and manages to blame the actions of the neo-nazi on fears about immigrants. '

Yes, but this thread is about Trump and Trump has nothing whatsoever to do with that.

'And the thing is, we aren't saying that everyone who supports Trump and Farage is fascist. You might like to twist it that way. What we are saying is that they are encouraging those who lean that way to grow in strength and numbers.'

I disagree with that, but are you saying that you think that free people in England and America should not be allowed to support Farage or Trump because you think that they are encouraging "those who lean that way [fascism] to grow in strength and numbers."

scream fascist, racist and Putin

I like the way you put Putin there in the same category of word as racist and fascist.

Claig, you et al. have been doing your best to discredit the left and anyone who disagrees with you as elite, establishment or as being bought.
You've been selling Trump as the second coming and as the big common person defender. He's nothing of the sort and you can't shut down the discussion when it's pointed out to you and all the similarities between what's happening in the US and elsewhere with events and movements that turned up to be very nasty indeed.
History is there to teach us and keep us alert to what goes wrong in our society. Your attitude is reckless, and downright dangerous. Revolution for the sake of revolution. Breaking down with the current set up without looking closely at who and what you're replacing it with. Accepting lies and manipulation as desirable even, all in the name of beating whatever you think is the system. And for what? Start looking closely at your choices and be careful indeed about what you wish for.

Squishy- you ask if a person can be both a hero and wicked (paraphrased). If that's in reference to Trump, then you are asking the wrong question. But to answer you - I don't care. It's like asking me if I think my GP is nice or not. I don't care as long as he does the job. I expect to be in a professional relationship with people who are not family or friends. I expect teachers to teach, doctors to cure and politicians to represent my voice on domestic and world stages. I've already explained my approach to Trump. I don't much care for any of them but then I wouldn't expect to. I work with people like Trump. They are two a penny because they are products of our deeply-ingrained racist and sexist culture (which, by the way, is nothing compared to how you'd be treated in other parts of the world so we are not doing too badly although there's always room for improvement). We can begin dismantling our racist and sexist culture by making an example of Trump and starting at the very top, but then we'd be depriving ourselves of a president who might do what he says- keep out of Syria, get on with Russia, focus on domestic job creation. Not only that, but I suspect that our attempt to dismantle our racist and sexist culture will be met with much resistance from many factions because it's a useful thing to keep perpetuating (otherwise, we would have got rid of it by now). I'm happy to give peace a chance. If he screws up, he's out. It's all quite simple and really doesn't warrant the hysterics that we've observed thus far.

Well said, Lweji

'But I'm not going to stop challenging the narrative on this thread where Trump is a great guy with "the people's" interests at heart. Ditto Farage.'

Lots of posters have made that point well without smearing posters who disagree as fascists, racists, haters, white supremacists and pro Putin trolls. Why can't you do the same?

It was you who asked me the question

"are you a white supremacist?"

when I have said nothing racist at all, and my favourite people to watch are the black Stump for Trump Sisters because they are hilarious and Stump for Trump like no one else on the planet.

Have a bit of respect for posters who disagree with you, have some English tolerance and the politeness not to accuse others of "white supremacism" because you dislike Farage and Trump and Putin.

There is lots of room for free speech by starting a new thread on that and seeing if anyone agrees and wants to post on it.

Nice try.
No, you won't get to sit nicely in your corner with your mates and no challenges to your opinions. Not on MN.

But you're free to start your own private club somewhere, where you can shut free speech and imagine you're in the right.

'Claig, you et al. have been doing your best to discredit the left and anyone who disagrees with you as elite, establishment or as being bought.'

No I haven't. I am a Corbyn fan, I like Corbyn even though he is an idiot on some issues. I only discredit Tony Blair and the political class and Guardian journalists as serving the Establishment and the elites, not voters or members of the Labour Party. I agree with Momentum, I like Corbyn and think he is much better than the 172 and Owen Banter.