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claig · 12/11/2016 08:30

Another Trump thread for those who want to discuss what it all means

Article from another thread

"History Tells Us What Will Happen Next With Brexit And Trump"

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Roussette · 12/11/2016 08:35

Thank you claig. As I said on t'other thread, my DC1 sent it to me last night. It's very scary reading.

We do need to build some bridges somehow but I have no idea how that's going to happen.

Shiningexample · 12/11/2016 08:51

Thanks for the link Claig, reading it now....

Shiningexample · 12/11/2016 09:00

My prediction as of now is that trump will make a huge tit of himself but things will be (broadly speaking) managed and smoothed over

Or maybe nuclear Armageddon followed by small groups of survivors thrown back to the stone age

I hope not because I've just had my bathroom re tiled

Shiningexample · 12/11/2016 09:06

I have an image of trump as a cat that has been set among the pigeons, a big greedy old ginger tom cat

surferjet · 12/11/2016 09:07

Hi claig.
Just posting to get your updates. Smile

fourmummy · 12/11/2016 09:18

Speaking of animal analogies, this might put a smile on a few people's faces:

claig · 12/11/2016 09:21

I have read it. I think it is wrong and is scaremongering, the sort of Project Fear stuff that our elites always use "the end of Western Civilization" etc in Brexit, in order to stop people having self-determination and stripping their freedom and sovereignty away under the guise of "we know what's best for you, after all, we are the experts."

It is the usual Establishment groupthink

He thinks that human history is based on cycles i.e. no free will essentially and predetermined outcomes reoccur at regular cyclical intervals. But this is wrong, he denies the role of human agency in what causes wars etc, it is all about power, so looking back at what happened in 1500 is of no use to understand what is happening now because the entire world's power structure has changed and the goals of those in power in a globalised world are totally different to what King Henry VIII, for example, wanted to do.

So his use of apocalyptic stiuff about Plague, Black Death, nuclear war, Trump as Hitler etc is wrong. The only thing he seems to be missing among the groupthink is the "plight of the polar bear" in catastrophic climate change. It is all Project Fear stuff, the usual way they fool us.

'Ignoring and mocking the experts, as people are doing around Brexit and Trump’s campaign, is no different to ignoring a doctor who tells you to stop smoking, and then finding later you’ve developed incurable cancer.'

This was the argument of the Remoaners, it was the best they could come up with. The Oxbridge teams used it in all the newspapers and on the BBC ad boresiam. No one bought it, apart from Cameron, the people knew the game.

Trump has ended all this crap, he has driven a coach and horses through the arguments of the "best and the brightest" by saying what all the people already know

"We are led by very, very stupid people, very, very stupid people"

Trump mocked what he called "these geniuses" who got us into wars that have destroyed the Middle East and have "got us nothing. I said take the oil, take the oil, fols and they laughed at me and I was right ..."

Trump mocked the people who call themselves "experts" and said to the Trump fans at rallies, about the ridiculously large trade deficits with China and Mexico, that what he called "these political hacks" have negotiated

"who do you want to negotiate for you, Trump or those clowns?"

and Trump fans shouted "Trump, Trump, Trump" while the "lying" media enclave at the rally shouted "those clowns, clowns, clowns" and were rightly booed by the tens of thousands of Trump fans who shouted Clinton News Network at them as well as some stronger language that is best not repeated on a polite forum

Trump said we are led by "stupid people, incompetent people" and the Trump fans agreed and yet these fools continue to lecture and mock Trump and say that he has unfairly assessed their competencies.

The author's article is the usual Establishment groupthink that we are all doomed (as they tell us with the old climate change game that Trump says is a "hoax")

"Obama says the greatest problem in the world is climate change, not Isis. We have people chopping off heads, like you read about in medieval times, they are chopping off heads, folks, and he talks about climate change. Give me a break"

and Trump fans applaud and laugh. "Stupid people, folks, very stupid people",. "not gonna happen any more".

The Establishment has no answer to the cold, clear common sense of Trump. Oxbridge teams are "out of ammo". The only argument they have left is "populists offer easy arguments, but politics is more complex than that"

but Trump says

"poiticians, all talk, no action"

The author's entire article is a climate of depair, just like their climate change story

The author says

"What can we do? Well, again, looking back, probably not much. The liberal intellectuals are always in the minority"

Of course we can do something and that is what the American people have done by choosing Trump over the "very stupid people" in the Establishment.

The author trots out the Cold War containing Russia arguments as if they will attack us and he says "the Baltic countries will declare war on Russia" and half of Europe will join in. It is nonsense and Trump says he will get along with Russia

"Wouldn't it be nice to get along with Russia, folks? Wouldn't it be nice to sort Isis out together? If they want to bomb the hell out of isis, let 'em, are we crazy? Give me a break"

And the author ends with the Establishment Project Fear line, the only line they ever had

"We need to harness a different fear. Fear of another World War nearly stopped World War 2, but didn’t."

It is nonsense, they can't frighten the people. It failed in Brexit and it failed with Trump.

Reading the author's arguments, I can only imagine he must be Oxbridge, Establishment groupthink through and through.
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CaptainBrickbeard · 12/11/2016 09:28

I keep wondering what history will make of all of this and how the connections will be made and lines drawn. It does feel like huge upheaval is coming. I thought about this yesterday during the silence for Remembrance. Optimistically, I hope we will come out the other side for the better but it can only come at great cost.

Roussette · 12/11/2016 09:42

Thank you for your comments claig even though I don't agree with them all!

Yes, it is a fearful and scary article but us non DT supporters are fearful as to what is going to happen. If only DT had offered us some strong policies for the future. My only hope is... his campaign was vote catching rhetoric and he will be more conciliatory and take advice when in office. A good start is keeping some of Obamacare as reported this morning.

It's hard to know exactly what he will do. There is so little he has said, that at some time he has not said the opposite of. However, we have to build those bridges and build links and establish common ground between us all. I think it's going to be a painful few years both here and in the US.

howabout · 12/11/2016 09:59

You are a breath of fresh air Claig. You may well be right about my bbc habit. After watching Maureen Lipman ridiculing DT and more than half the UK and US populations on HIGNFY while simultaneously pouring thinly veiled racist scorn on Diane Abbott it is going to take more than a few entertaining Claig threads and many hours of George Galloway and RT to do some rebalancing. It is a sad state of affairs when Sky appears to be the least biased msm outlet.

Cannot bring myself to read the Huffpost article so will take your precis. Says it all when the former head of Greenpeace is making the argument in FAVOUR of fracking in the face of the myopic Green lobby. That will be the same climate change fanatics who practically force consumers to buy filthy diesels with phoney emissions tests because climate change is apparently worse than toxic chemicals and nuclear waste.

claig · 12/11/2016 10:12

'A good start is keeping some of Obamacare as reported this morning.'

Yes, but that is another classic exmaple of the "lying" media.

They are pretending that Trump has made a u-turn. They take one thing he said in his hundreds of hours of speeches and rallies, that he would "scrap Obamacare" and say that now he says he is going to keep "the preexisting conditions" but, but he always said he would do that in other speeches in his rallies. That hasn't changed. Not absolutely everything in Obamacare is wrong and he never said it was. That is how they spinned against him throughout and their best teams are still at it now.

Trump said in the Republican debates "we're not gonna have people dying on the streets" through lack of healthcare and Cruz and the Republican elite immediately attacked him and said "what is he saying? That's socialism. He's not a real conservative."

But he always said he wasn't a Republican like them, he always said "he was a common sense conservative" and although he called Obama and Hillary "stupid people" he knows they also did some good things.

He is not as bad as the mainstream media make out. They are doing their bosses' wishes in attacking him because the Establishment fear him because they have lost their power.

'It's hard to know exactly what he will do. There is so little he has said, that at some time he has not said the opposite of. '

Yes, he said a lot of inconsistent things because he didn't need to do anything else. It was enough to say "we are led by very, very stupid people" because everyone knew it was true. It was a classic case of the boy who said the emperor had no clothes, and it is exactly the same all across Europe too. Everyone knows they are "stupid policies" made by servants of bankers and elites, but no member of thw "political class" is prepared to say it because as Trump says they are all "puppets", so it got so bad, that in the end an outsider whith no political experience was needed to say what all the people were thinking "we are led by very, very stupid people".

I think Trump will sort America out very fast and then Europe will learn from his example, so the "very stupid people" will either have to change and learn or they will be defeated in elections by people with some "common sense".

The change is positive, the status quo of austerity and losing and "losers" who are "clueless and incompetent" is ending. Trump says "we are gonna start winning again". The media teams will try and knock him at every turn, but the more they do so, the more the people will know that they are part of the "losing" Establishment side (as was partly revealed in Wikileaks).

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claig · 12/11/2016 10:14

'That will be the same climate change fanatics who practically force consumers to buy filthy diesels with phoney emissions tests because climate change is apparently worse than toxic chemicals and nuclear waste.'

Absolutely and all the unnecessary early deaths that has led to.

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Spinflight · 12/11/2016 10:19

I think Trump knew that policy....didn't really matter.

It's a sad reflection on the politicians before him more than specifically on him that we are so used to politicians lying to us that we inherently kinda forget what they say.

The election was primarily about culture. He was an American who could just be playing golf if he wanted, she was a politician who had to win to keep her job. He didn't like the way America was heading and was willing to be an asshole to fix it, she thought America was fine and just promised more of the same. He knew the game, knew how to drain the swamp, she was the game and benefitted from it.

That wikileaks pretty much confirmed everything he said, and that he said it all before the leaks cannot be understated. Think about it's back story, 10 years publishing leaked documents without ever having them questioned as fakes with an editor on the run and literally risking his life for the cause of free speech. The only unimpeachable source left in journalism. Almost too good to be true isn't it?

On not trusting experts I'm sure Trump trusts architects, engineers and those he works with on a professional level, as do we all.

Should we trust polling companies? Stuffed with experts they is.
Should we trust the press? Loads of experts who are brilliant at colluding with their political masters.
Should we trust the banks? To do what? I'd prefer it if they didn't pick our cabinet and even their primary job of making money seems to elude them. They seem to be better at going bust.
Should we trust the treasury? Top top top experts! Who managed to get every single economic effect of brexit completely arse over tit.
Should we trust the democratic process and elections? If I were a Democrat in America I'd consider myself daft to given Sander's treatment. Would you trust the government with another referendum over here?

Frankly wikileaks didn't just confirm Trump's back story, it confirmed our own and our fears as being rooted, rational and correct.

fourmummy · 12/11/2016 10:32

I think it is wrong and is scaremongering, the sort of Project Fear stuff that our elites always use "the end of Western Civilization" etc in Brexit, in order to stop people having self-determination and stripping their freedom and sovereignty away under the guise of "we know what's best for you, after all, we are the experts."

This is the crux of everything. The inevitable distinction between elites/ everyone else that human societies create result in a permanent tussle between authoritarianism and personal liberty ( self a determination, free will, agency, whatever you wnt to call it). This is what this is all about and what it's always about, whether capitalism, communism, fascism, theocracy, or any other human societal organisational system.

claig · 12/11/2016 10:43

Absolutely, fourmummy.

It was about "we the little people", the ones they spin and mock behind closed doors at their champagne lunches with bankers and billionaires, the ones who shouldn't be given referendums because we don't know what is best for us. They tell us it is the bankers who have our best interests at heart as the Troika did for the Greek people, that globalisation "cannot be stopped", that uncontrolled free movement of people is inevitable, that "Assad must go" as Cameron kept saying when everybody on the planet could see that he was going nowhere after 4 or 5 years of it. It was just one disaster after another, one lie after another and pictures of leaders meeting for dinners at Brussels and spouting platitudes while austerity was everywhere and nobody cared what the people thought.

The Establishment hated and still hate Farage because he dared to tell some of the truth, that "the little people" knew we were being lied to.

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MangoMoon · 12/11/2016 12:33

Hi Claig!
Not started reading it yet, but placemarking to catch up later.
Always enjoy your threads.

claig · 12/11/2016 12:35

Thanks, MangoMoon Grin

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time4chocolate · 12/11/2016 14:16

Place marker for me too Claig Smile - will catch up this evening when I will be able to digest without distraction.

claig · 12/11/2016 14:39
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Quiero · 12/11/2016 14:54

It says something when the first thing I thought when I realised Trump had won was fuck me - Claig was right! Grin

You saw this coming in a way none of the mainstream media or liberal commentators did. Thankfully you were wrong about the rise of UKIP. I'd like to think the UK hasn't gone as far down the US route of completely losing their marbles...yet!

I despise Donald Trump. I despise the way he ran his campaign, I cannot stand the fact that someone who is so openly mysoginistic and bigoted is allowed to be in such a powerful position...

...BUT there is a silver lining here and I hope it begins the real challenge to neoliberalism. If it wakes people up and starts to focus anger in the right direction then there is a glimmer of hope. It's a huge wake up call to us liberals and progressives and I really hope we can get our shit together to make a change.

claig · 12/11/2016 15:30

Thanks, Quiero.

I am not sure it is even over in the UK. UKIP are useless, they didn't even back Trump, they didn't have the bottle. Farage backed him, but not wholeheartedly, but Farage is now near enough the only UK politician that knows Trump and his team.

I think Farage is exaggerating, but I am sure that he gets on better with Trump and his team than a team of UK conservative modernisers would.

"Nigel Farage: Donald Trump 'delayed phone call to Theresa May over insults from Tory ministers'
He [Boris] said: “I think Donald Trump is clearly out of his mind if he thinks that's a sensible way to proceed, to ban people going to the United States in that way, or to any country.

"What he's doing is playing the game of the terrorists and those who seek to divide us. That's exactly the kind of reaction they hope to produce.

"I think he's betraying a quite stupefying ignorance that makes him frankly unfit to hold the office of President of the United States."

And you have Oxbridge Ed Miliband going on the BBC calling Trump "the groper". It just beggars belief what they teach these politicians. They are representing all of us so they need to keep it respectful when dealing with the future President of the United States for the sake of the country.

I read that Arron Banks is thinking of funding some sort of movement. UKIP are useless and finished, but if there was someone like Katie Hopkins in charge of a new party, I reckon she would end up as Prime Minister after a while.

Anyone with a bit of common sense would walk all over the Oxbridge teams and Ed Miliband of "the groper" fame.

Here is an interview on Chicago radio with the Stump for Trump Sisters, Diamond and Silk, after Trump's win, for true fans.

If Trump comes out with a Trump TV to finish the phoneys at Fox off, then the Stump for Trump Sisters will be the top stars on there.
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Chris1234567890 · 12/11/2016 20:06

I utterly dismissed the entire Huff article, so not sure if Im qualified to comment on it! Of course Trumps the new Hitler. Of course Trumps funded by Putin. Of course its the 'rabble' duly roused. Of course its the end of the world. Its fascism. Its Nationalism. Its racism. And more importantly, its the authors desire to be recorded as the one who saw, understood and told the world about the abyss we are plunging into.

Except, in this blind desire to validate his own belief, hes disregarded 4 glaring inaccuracies. The first being, in April 2016, the Dutch rejected by referendum the Ukraine-European Treaty. Has the author simply dismissed this as some 'minor' european event? If he has, he best wait for the history books to be written to correct him.
Secondly, Turkey. How on earth does he square that circle? He doesnt. It doesnt work with the narrative.
Thirdly, the economic position of the EU. Its a slightly inconvenient truth that the EU in simple terms, doesnt have much impact on UK economy either way, in or out. The EU economy on the other hand is utterly in the shit. And finally, the persistant misrepresentation of who the "rabble" is.

Redneck, knuckle dragging, low IQ bunch of nazi racists marching across europe, hell bent on stopping racial integration and now led by a gift of a figurehead. Trump. The author is wrong. The author ignores, this is the same America that voted Obama in for 2 terms. The very same America. The very same electoral system. The very same disingenous electioneering and duplicitous politicians weve all come to know and love, world wide. When will the penny drop? The elections in December in Italy and Austria will indeed continue the 'momentum' whilst the inconvenient truths continue to be buried and spun. France next spring ? Of course.
But for me, come autumn 2017 and the German nation goes to the polls, the author best be damn right. Theres a raft of loyal Germans, proud to be European, proud to have opened their arms to the needy over decades, whove always paid their own way, and taken nothing out of 'the system'. Who have paid their dues, over and over again for the sins of their fathers. An educated and informed voter whose concerns about policy and direction, political integrity, have prompted his free vote, as is his right to do, without impedance. A good man. (or woman of course mumsnet). Thats who the author will be calling a nazi. Damn right this is about to get worse.

Roussette · 12/11/2016 20:28


Interesting take and I enjoyed reading your post

(Don't read anything dodgy into that!)

PacificDogwod · 12/11/2016 20:42

Trump has already turned politician, what with beginning to go back on his election promises - if I were one of his supporters, I'd be well annoyed.
Self-serving demagogue that he is. And the nepotism of having half his family in official posts? All in best Eastern Block tradition Grin

I am actually surprised that there are demonstrations by disappointed Clinton supporters, but not by Trump supporters feeling cheated. Or do they need a bit more time to understand just HOW royally they have been duped??

I don't think it matters how historically accurate that article (started out as a blog post) is: I think the central point about regular (self-)destructive cycles that humanity subjects itself too is a valid one.
It is frustrating that there always seem to be some who see it coming, but are powerless to stop it.
Humankind will be fine, individuals (?nations) will suffer.

The elections in Germany next year worry me.
Many, many v unhappy Germans about immigration/migrants and the generation that remembers WW2 at the brink of dying out. My parents were born in 1933 and 1941, are politically very aware, my dad was a refuge himself, my mum bombed out her house as a young child - and they are frightened by the prospect of Germany not being 'German' any more - I kind of see what they mean, but just don't think that the expectation that things will always be the same is a realistic or valid one.

Things are a-changing.
There is mass immigration, driven by poverty and political instability in many countries of the world.
The rich West may well not like it, become all radical and blustery about building walls, bad decisions may lead to destabilisation etc, but the desperate masses WILL come.

Bananagio · 12/11/2016 20:52

chris just delurking once again as saw your post referring to mine on the last thread (was closed so couldn't post there)and I have to say please please don't make the mistake of thinking what held Berlusconi back from success was lack of sovereignty due to the EU. It really wasn't. Berlusconi is a con man, a wheeler dealer with meglomaniac tendencies who is purely motivated by self-interest. His failures were primarily his. There may be other poster boys you can find to promote the anti-EU cause but Berlusconi is not your man. And also the list of reasons I gave as to why 5* is growing in popularity (IMO) I gave specifically to show that the problems are not all due to the EU. The causes are much more complex and it is a falsehood to say they are all the fault of Brussels which is how I felt you interpreted my post. Corruption, crisis and economy issues etc etc date from way before the times of austerity (although that hasn't helped). And from before the Euro. And before the times of the EU/EC etc.

Finally in reference to your point above we don't have an election in Dec (yet Grin). We have a referendum regarding reform of the second chamber here. It is seen as being an important moment re Europe because Renzi (arrogantly and naively IMO) staked his position on getting a result saying he will resign if not. Which would result in elections and at that point 5* could get in. Result could be the same in getting a populist government but think stating the correct cause is important if we are to understand what is happening.
Back to lurking now - just wanted to make my post and viewpoint isn't being misunderstood.

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