with the terrible history Jews have, why is Israel behaving like this?

[ssd]

I would have thought they would be showing more compassion for a repressed minority but the opposite is happening

and Netanyahu saying they told the Palestinians to leave because they were going to be fired on...where the bloody hell would they go to?? IF THEY COULD GO AT ALL

There was absolutely no support in 1968 for the idea of a united Ireland in NI except among a small minority of minority opinion. Even among the poor the welfare and amenities available to them as part of the UK far outstripped anything available in the Republic and this was well known.

When British troops first arrived in Belfast they were greeted by Catholic women with cups of tea and gratitude.

The civil war in Ireland was fought on the basis of Free State with dominion status and the monarch as head of state vs. the concept of a completely independent Republic and the philosophy that all power springs from the people as opposed to power flowing down from monarch to people. Republicans saw a return to any status that involved a continued political link to Britain as a betrayal of the Republic that had been proclaimed in 1916.

'Republican' was not a random choice of title for the Republicans. It meant what 'republican' still means in the context of the monarchy.

The idea that the Civil War was fought over the issue of partition gained currency with the rise of the IRA in the late 60s and early 70s. The IRA and later the Provos (following a split into 'Official' and 'Provisional' camps) sought to establish legitimacy and political respectability by use of the idea that their cause had always been a cause of true nationalists all over the island. According to the Provos, a united Ireland was the only issue that mattered in the whole of 20th century Irish history.

Hamas are in a position to recognise that Palestinians may be more concerned with civil rights and a shot at prosperity than they are about the right of the state of Israel to exist, just as the Provos could have accepted the preoccupation of Catholics in NI with civil rights and their lack of concern with any overriding political agenda.

I do not expect anyone to state their qualifications to post on this thread, or make any assurances about their stance on violence.

I consider that insistence, and the continuous insistence that posters who do not agree with one particular view of current events must therefore support violence a petty and a horrible form of bullying.

I assume everyone is as interested as I am in honest, fair and open discussion and I respect all points of view put forth honestly and fairly and the right of posters to post those opinions. If anyone posts a post that I disagree with I am of course entitled to post my counter-opinion.

If anyone thinks I am mistaken in my belief that everyone is interested in honest and fair and open discussion, please feel free to correct me.

This an interesting piece by Robert Fisk in The Belfast Telegraph.

www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/columnists/robert-fisk/israelgaza-conflict-what-would-we-do-if-it-had-been-35-palestinian-dead-and-800-israeli-30461439.html

These people have no way of getting out have they. They aren't safe inside, they aren't safe outside, in a hospital, in a school, in a UN building. They have nowhere to go.

I think thunder is right. I haven't posted today as the Abuse I got for not having the 'right' view was uncalled for. I am entitled to my opinion and happily listen and take I
To account others.

For what it's worth I have spoken to mumsnet about the continued use of the T word and treatment on these threads.

'...your viewpoint seems to imply that anyone who doesn't agree with you is a sentimental gunslinger.'

I am opposed to lazy generalisations, lazy charaterisations, lazy caricaturing, superficial acquaintance with facts, disregard for facts, and the insistence that details don't matter when discussing life and death matters.

This is also interesting, earlier than the other.

www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/columnists/robert-fisk/gaza-backstory-a-future-palestine-state-will-have-no-borders-and-be-an-enclave-within-israel-surrounded-on-all-sides-by-israeliheld-territory-30420917.html

I am especially opposed to lazy caricaturing because it is my belief that demonisation is a dangerous road to travel; it involves demonisation of other people and it leads to a horrible destination.

It is the fruit of all the other crimes against rationality and higher human instincts and values -- it is the culmination of ignorance, laziness and all base human instincts.

And it is present in spades on these threads.

I await howls about where my priorities lie.

I went on twitter this afternoon and saw #icc4israel trending (for those who didn't know what icc4israel means: international criminal court for Israel).
I clicked on what people where saying and I felt my heart break and the hairs on my body stand and tears came flooding down my face .
It was full of pictures of fathers screaming helplessly grieving , carrying their -once beautiful full of life but now dead babies. Another girl was in the hospital with body parts hanging out / missing . It is all so agonising and gruesome to look at. I had to stop looking. I couldn't .
Today I read that a baby was delivered prematurely from a pregnant woman who died in an Israeli attack. I cried again .

Irony is that the Israeli army is supposed to be highly trained and are meant to hit real 'targets'.
So...
How many Palestinian babies have died? Too many, they have lost count

How many people have died ? Over 1000 till now . And over 5000 injured with life changing injuries. These are. all innocent people and children who deserve and have the right to live peacefully and happily like all of us here.

If one Israeli baby died, there would have been an uproar. Yet Palestinian children are dying everyday. According to Oxfam " on average 1 child is being killed every hour "

Their lives seem to be cheap to save . Not one nation has lifted a finger to help. That's even more agonising.

They clearly want to wipe them off the face of the earth. Poor poor poor babies. May they rest peacefully in heaven away from all this painful evil world.

Dingalong - it was not intended to be a comment aimed at you, it was intended to be information you might find useful. Page back a bit.

math Still waiting on your comments on the Zionist terrorism that was used to push for the formation of your beloved Israel???

dingalong I don't think math knows half as much about Irish history as she claims to and I can't be arsed to explain it all to her. Israel's appalling behaviour cannot be explained or justified by referencing Irish history, no matter how hard math tries.

Oh and math It's funny that you don't approve of demonisation when the demonisation of the Palestinian people appears to be one of Israel's specialities.

I agree with that Dingalong. I do reserve the right to post analogies if I feel they can shed light on current matters though.

I feel it's better to shed light than generate heat.

I think I made it clear that demonisation is demonisation is demonisation.

I did not mention demonisation of Israel.

I did not mention any specific target of demonisation in fact, yet you seem to think it was demonisation of Israel that I was referring to when you posted your ironic observation.

Have you seen and reported any evidence of demonisation of Israel or Palestinians on these threads?

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good (wo)men to do nothing."

I believe I have commented on Zionist terrorism and its role in the establishment of the state of Israel, Runes.

'My basic premise is that if you dig hard enough you will find justification for pretty much everything in political history.

One week a terrorist is lobbing bombs at the RIC and the following week he is negotiating with Lloyd George, wearing his 'statesman' hat.One week a Jew from Belarus via Poland whose family disappeared in the Holocaust is going around calling himself 'Michael' (in homage to IRB leader Michael Collins) to hide his identity from the security apparatus of the state that is denying his fellow Jews - refugees no less - the right to settle there, and a few years later he finds himself Prime Minister of Israel, a statesman -- new hat, new name...

Maybe it's hard to believe today, but one day in living memory the underdog who would have had the sympathy of bleeding hearts on this thread might have been the Israelis, and the wannabe Israelis.

And perhaps I can conclude from the expressions of sympathy for the plight of oppressed minorities that many people here would have been on the side of Catholics and Nationalists in Northern Ireland, would have considered the Provisional IRA had a legitimate point, and would have been able to greet the bombing of Manchester, Birmingham and London with some 'whataboutery'.

In other words, I would like to suggest it's a mistake to be swayed by sentiment in matters of geopolitics.

Dang, italics fail..

Underlying my comment is the idea that we shouldn't be too quick to assign labels to groups (for example, 'terrorists', 'genocidal psychopaths') because events can move fast.

We're all palsy walsy with Germany now after all.

And of course, because it is wrong to caricature or demonise people as a group or class and even as individuals.

Jesus math your hypocrisy really is astounding. When it's the PIRA you say Maggie wasn't harsh enough (not enough NI deaths?) but when defending Israel and Zionist terrorism we shouldn't be too quick to judge. Maybe Israel have been too quick to label Hamas as terrorists. Have you been reading this www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/israelgaza-conflict-secret-report-helps-israelis-to-hide-facts-9630765.html

People never learn lessons from history. They only learn to follow the worst examples.