with the terrible history Jews have, why is Israel behaving like this?

[ssd]

I would have thought they would be showing more compassion for a repressed minority but the opposite is happening

and Netanyahu saying they told the Palestinians to leave because they were going to be fired on...where the bloody hell would they go to?? IF THEY COULD GO AT ALL

Israel would try to stop you. They would say that the Palestinians use your universities to train terrorists; your schools to store weapons, and your hospitals to hide tunnels. They would then bomb them, and express regret for the accidental death and maiming of thousands of innocent people who by unforeseeable chance happened to be in the buildings.

in reply to this post made yesterday from dancingwithmyselfandthecat Fri 25-Jul-14 10:07:42

I apologise, you're absolutely right. And I apologise to anyone else with my incorrect wording in the op.

so saying that, I still believe the Israeli government are wrong

They are saying on FB that Hamas has destroyed the church of the holy sepulchre, Its not reported in the media only in the Jewish press.

I did a quick google. Only site I can find reporting it is advocating nuking Mecca so lets wait and see if it's indeed true.

Im sure its more propaganda. Its such a shame intelligent people resort to such nonsense.

Timbucktoo: I know you only joined Mumsnet two days ago but can I just point out that the "Jewish press" as you call it is not some monolithic body. Hence, there is in fact no such thing as the Jewish press.

There are many vastly varying opinions within Jewish communities around the world, reflected in the widely varying opinions expressed in publications produced by those who happen to be Jewish.

At least two of your similar comments have been deleted for this reason - referencing Jews as if they were a monolithic group. Have you really not noticed this?

Forgive me but I'm starting to question your motives, with your apparent support for Gaza's people, sandwiched between these sort of comments which you must know are bound to alienate and annoy liberal people who happen to be Jewish.

Oh sorry didn't realise it was this thread - not engaging on this one.

Maybe an object lesson in the danger of placing your trust in twitter and facebook as sources of news?

Is it possible at all that such sources could be manipulated ???

Backinthering -- 'not firing rockets won't end their misery'

Could it be that you are teetering on the brink of justifying the firing of rockets into civilian centres?

Runes, it's an ironic old world, now isn't it?

Not least ironic is the fact that on this thread it is perfectly acceptable to post about South Africa but not about Ireland.

But heyho.

The problem isn't that you've mentioned Ireland It's that in your attempts to defend Israeli mass murder your references to the NI situation have been nonsensical. I note you didn't attempt to address the issue of Zionist terrorism either.

That is the crux of the matter in Ireland, Dingalong.

SF finds itself obliged to listen when people express their desire never to go back to the days of the terror campaign.

As long as the Provos thought they could win against Britain they convinced themselves that the community was willing to pay the price that terror cost it. When it became clear that not just the wider RC community but the hardliners' own relatives were not willing to tow the PIRA line any more the jig was up.

Thank you for acknowledging my right to mention Ireland on this thread, Runes.

Read through everything I have written again.
My basic premise is that if you dig hard enough you will find justification for pretty much everything in political history.

One week a terrorist is lobbing bombs at the RIC and the following week he is negotiating with Lloyd George, wearing his 'statesman' hat. One week a Jew from Belarus via Poland whose family disappeared in the Holocaust is going around calling himself 'Michael' (in homage to IRB leader Michael Collins) to hide his identity from the security apparatus of the state that is denying his fellow Jews - refugees no less - the right to settle there, and a few years later he finds himself Prime Minister of Israel, a statesman -- new hat, new name...

Maybe it's hard to believe today, but one day in living memory the underdog who would have had the sympathy of bleeding hearts on this thread might have been the Israelis, and the wannabe Israelis.

And perhaps I can conclude from the expressions of sympathy for the plight of oppressed minorities that many people here would have been on the side of Catholics and Nationalists in Northern Ireland, would have considered the Provisional IRA had a legitimate point, and would have been able to greet the bombing of Manchester, Birmingham and London with some 'whataboutery'.

In other words, I would like to suggest it's a mistake to be swayed by sentiment in matters of geopolitics.

Exactly.

It was a civil rights campaign that was hijacked by a separatist organisation with a different political agenda from that of the original civil rights movement.

Now that the separatist agenda has been swept aside, civil rights are finally accorded.

This separatist group was an offshoot of an offshoot of earlier separatist incarnations. Even within it, while negotiations on the Good Friday Agreement were ongoing, hardliners were muttering, and carrying out terrorist acts such as the Omagh bombing.

Every single offshoot of the original Irish Volunteers has claimed communion with the one true church of Irish Nationalism while disparaging those from whom they split as traitors to the cause, and so it is with Fatah and Hamas and now possibly hardliners within Hamas in the context of reconciliation with the apostate Fatah (previously shunned because it had by some accounts acknowledged the right of Israel to exist).

It has yet to be revealed whether extremists in Hamas were involved in the recent kidnapping of Jewish teens that occurred in the context of Hamas and Fatah burying the hatchet and jointly acknowledging the right of the state of Israel to exist, or coming close to that.

If extremists opposed to the reconciliation with Fatah were involved it would be no surprise. Hardliners tend to cling tightly to their agenda regardless of the will or the needs of those they pretend to be leading into the promised land, and they do not hesitate to drive events by means of provocation unless the centre is strong enough to wipe them out.

As an example of dealing with hardliners, DeValera outlawed the (still up and running) IRA in 1936, and interned 1500 IRA members during WW2, some of whom died on hunger strike. De Valera executed more IRA members than Britain did.

It remains to be seen whether Hamas leadership can deal with extremists as harshly and effectively, or whether Hamas leadership is actually extremist and will cling to denial of the right of the state of Israel to exist.

It remains to be seen whether Hamas is concerned with civil rights or its own political agenda. The two do not necessarily go hand in hand.

Dingalong --
I think the default position on these threads should be the assumption that everybody here abhors violence. I think that would a civil and civilised default assumption.

Unfortunately many posters have taken the position that unless one explicitly opts into the anti-Israel club and expresses unreserved condemnation of Israeli violence one is automatically some sort of bloodthirsty fellow traveller of an allegedly genocidal state.

Therefore, I do not care whether you explicitly said you abhor violence.

I assume you do until you suggest otherwise.

Dingalong, as we have people on here who applaud brutality and oppression, the more the better, it would be a mistake to think that everyone on the thread abhors violence.