with the terrible history Jews have, why is Israel behaving like this?

[ssd]

I would have thought they would be showing more compassion for a repressed minority but the opposite is happening

and Netanyahu saying they told the Palestinians to leave because they were going to be fired on...where the bloody hell would they go to?? IF THEY COULD GO AT ALL

Great post, SamG.

I think your point that:

"when the Palestinians do appalling things, people try to excuse it by saying that they have been oppressed for many years, as if that excuses it. So the Jews have to behave better due to their persecution, while it gives others carte blanche to do what they like."

really sums up the essence of why this is such a bloody stupid thread.

and somewhere you are demonstrating a lack of knowledge of the role the Palestinians have played.

As I have said before it's a two sided problem. Palestinians send hundreds of rockets into Israel. It wasn't long ago they were nail bombing buses. Their method is just cruder. Their elected government is hiding weapons in their built up areas and telling people to stay put, they had billions and let children live in poverty. Shame on them.

As pigletjohn you suggested any anti- semitism was directed to mumsnet as it was. I didn't realise everything had to be run by you. Slightly demanding don't you think?

Yes dancing I agree that the idea of a historically oppressed people having to be better than anyone else because of their own oppression is unfair and wrong.

The Israeli state should do the right thing because it's the right thing to do, including for the Israeli people.

And yes, I would urge posters who see anti-Semitism in their lives to report it to the authorities and speak out against it and call it for what it is. There are laws against hate speech in SA and I would assume there are similar laws against this in the UK surely.

We still get chants of kill the boer, kill the whites but for example in 2011, Julius Malema was convicted of hate speech after singing the song "Dubula iBunu" (Shoot the Boer), which is a good thing.

timbuktoo I'm not sure I understand your post re sore fingers, pro israeli comments and wishing death. Would you care to explain it?

It's the logical inconsistency that really gets me.

Either you argue

1. that no matter what you have been through, you should be able to learn compassion from your own experience of suffering.

Or you argue

1. that if you have been through attempted genocide, you have a good reason to be distrustful, and put your own security first.

You can't have it both ways. The premise of this thread is that Jews (not just Israelis - the thread title specifically focuses on their Jewishness) must always follow 1. and never 2, because of their experience of attempted genocide.

Yet the Palestinians apparently should never be expected to follow 1. and number 2 is a perfectly logical and morally valid option, given what they have suffered.

Why should Jews' suffering require them to be virtuous, while Palestinians' suffering requires them to seek revenge?

To my mind, both Jews and Palestinians and indeed all of humanity should aim for option 1.

But recognise that option 2 is a strong temptation - and that those who have suffered need to grieve their losses and reconcile with the past, in order to move on.

There also needs to be a much stronger appreciation of the non-too-subtle forces that will attempt to harness the temptation for revenge for its own (violent and unsavoury) ends.

I've reported timbucktoo's post as anti-Semitic. Sorry this discussion is getting ugly. I'm off.

I don't recall painting 'Muslim nations' as wallflowers although their possession of oil hasn't always been an advantage when other nations give them a dose of 'shock and awe' to get a hold of it.
And I also don't recall posters saying that Israel has no right to exist. But does it have the right to lay siege and murder children? No.
It's also a nuclear power in that region, don't forget, and has a dome over it, so not the defenceless nation that it is claimed to be.
I also find the idea that Israel 'ought to' behave better due to it's history very dubious- it ought to behave better because it exists in the international community and there are human rights laws and rules governing actions in war and Israel is breaking these left, right and centre as we can all see.

Timbucktoo - not all Jews support the state of Israel's current actions, not by a long chalk.

No apostrophe in it's intended! Its.

mondoweiss.net/2014/07/terrifying-tweets-israeli.html

www.jewishpress.com/news/breaking-news/185733/2014/07/11/

They have to die and their houses should be demolished so that they cannot bear any more terrorists," Shaked said, adding, "They are all our enemies and their blood should be on our hands. This also applies to the mothers of the dead

terrorists.”www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/07/16/371556/israel-must-kill-all-palestinian-mothers/

What makes you think that the posters on this thread think that Israel should not exist?

There are posters on this thread who would like Israel not to exist. I hope they will be happy to come forward.

What makes you think there is no one at all who has that point of view?

Every Jew in the world must have sore fingers from the amount of pro israeli comments on every newspaper.

Piglet, tell me that's the comment of a rational person who's given a lot of thought about the complexity of the Middle East!

Agree dancing.
My answer us exactly what i stated above.
Israel rules as a bully because that is the way to establish its position as de facto ruler as far as international kaw is concerned.
I can understand from an intellectual point of view what they are doing.
It does not detract from the fact that it is still totally immoral. They know exactly what they are doing.

I have never denied that there is people in the world who thinks Israel should not exist, nor that there are people who think that Palestinians should be exterminated (see above).

However neither is a point that the posters on this thread are making, so there is no-one to argue with. It is a straw man.

timbucktoo - I hope in the interests of balance you're now going to post a selection of the very many violent tweets/articles out there wishing death on all Israelis/Jews - like the ones Galaxina said her students had been posting.

Because you're completely even-handed, I'm sure.

Timbucktoo your links prove nothing.

If you feel a pressing need to set out your worldview regarding Jews, Israel and the actions of the Israeli state, feel free to do so. I am happy to have a discussion about it.

I am beyonD fucked off with Israel

I thinks it possible to have huge compassion for the Holocaust and be simultaneously angry with Isreal too

FUMING AND IMPOTENT

I personally would rather not report anti-Semitic posts like Timbucktoo's. Because I think it is good for people to see clearly what people like that have written. It destroys any future credibility they may have. The evidence should stay.

PigletJohn - I note you've moved on from demanding proof of anti-Semitic comments on MN! Strange, as the evidence is on this page.

I'd love to hear you condemn Timbucktoo's post - but I'm not holding my breath...

So dancing, could you tell me if you agree they are immoral and all means etc.... Fair enough....then each to their own and font complain about rockets etc....
Or should we just all do away with morals?
Or step back and consider palestinians legitimate legal claims?
Seriously? Can we step it up one notch and stop the all round shrieking?

I'm very suprised timbucktoo's comment is still here

I disagree with the suggestion that all the people who support Israel must be Jews. Israel has many non-Jewish supporters.

I strongly agree with wordsmithsforever Fri 25-Jul-14 07:53:24

However, if you think that a suggestion about emailing newspapers is as reprehensible as the anti-semitic riots in Paris and elsewhere, then you have no sense of proportion.

Do you have any more substantive examples? I still don't understand the claim "I think some of the statements on here are shocking and blatantly anti Semitic" but perhaps there are things I have missed.

BTW I took the advice about reporting two abusive posts which contained malicious lies, and they have also been removed.

I see Timbucktoo joined MN yesterday.