with the terrible history Jews have, why is Israel behaving like this?

[ssd]

I would have thought they would be showing more compassion for a repressed minority but the opposite is happening

and Netanyahu saying they told the Palestinians to leave because they were going to be fired on...where the bloody hell would they go to?? IF THEY COULD GO AT ALL

Btw, dancing, not by any means putting you on the spot, just rebounding on your question earlier.

Shame, PigletJohn. I think it's helpful to see them, we can all see the malicious lies and judge the speakers accordingly.

I'm sure you did see them before they went.

PigletJohn - what did you mean by:

"if you think that a suggestion about emailing newspapers is as reprehensible as the anti-semitic riots in Paris and elsewhere, then you have no sense of proportion"

No-one I have seen is suggesting hate speech is as bad as actual violence - but it's still pretty bad, surely you'd agree?

Surely you are not suggesting that it is just fine to imply that all Jews are some sort of homogenous mass intent on violence towards Palestinians?

Because that would clearly be anti-Semitic. Which you are not. Not all. Not in any way. Never. Oh no no.

PigletJohn - I don't know if I saw them as I don't know which ones they were! And by definition, can't now find them.

do you mean that you think a suggestion about emailing newspapers implies that all Jews are some sort of homogenous mass intent on violence?

laptop not sure what your question is? Are you saying do I agree that Israel's actions are immoral? And what should we do about it?

My initial comments about this thread were not about the morality or legality of Israel's actions but some of the more disturbing rhetoric which is used, and an attempt to draw timbucktoo out.

Beyond saying that I do not support Israel's current actions in Gaza, I am reluctant to give my view. This is for two reasons. First, because I am not sure in precise terms what my views are. Do I want Israel to operate by the standards of international law? Yes. Do I want schools full of children shelled? No. Do I want Hamas to operate by the standards of international law? Yes. Do I want rockets blasted into Tel Aviv? No. However, once you get beyond the top lines, this is an extra-ordinarily complex problem, and one full of disputed and contradictory facts. I have had the privilege of speaking to people who support both sides who are, through their work, much more knowledgeable than me and most of the people on this thread. I know how little I know.

Second, to a greater or lesser extent, I think that having fixed opinions (beyond the top line stuff) is pointless and borderline wrong. Fixed armchair opinions of those in Europe haven't solved any of these problems yet, and I strongly doubt they ever will. Looking at recent history the only way Israel/Palestine will ever move beyond where they are now is if both sides commit to focus on the future and not the wrongs of the past, and pursue wrongs through the courts and not a civilian battlefield.

Oh, sorry, i completely phased timbuktoo and all the periferal noise out!
And you have just answered my question. Thank you. Little do we know when we are not in the line of fire. On both sides.

Yes I think it is. If a rich, truly democratic country (which upheld all its citizen's rights equally) had great military might and were then to be invaded by another country that was, say for example, bent on trampling on the rights of particular groups in that rich powerful country, say for example, women's rights and Jewish rights, then yes that rich country would be a victim and I would support it 100%.

But that is a very theoretical situation and that's not what's going on now.

Wordsmith,
How about if there is no invasion but instead constant threats that are followed up by rockets, so many rockets that schools, hospitals and other public buildings, as well as individual homes, have bomb shelters. Israel has developed an interceptor system to destroy rockets and shells fired into Israel (Iron Dome). Perhaps the Israelis have gone to a lot of trouble over theoretical rockets?

In 2006, about 4000 Katyusha rockets were fired into northern Israel by Hezbollah from inside Lebanon. A quarter of a million Israelis evacuated the Haifa region and relocated to other parts of Israel. A million people sheltered in bomb shelters.

Between 2000 and 2008 about 8000 rockets and mortars were fired at Israeli population centres from Gaza, by Hamas. Nearly one million Israelis live within range of rockets from Gaza.

On the topic of bomb shelters, can anyone tell me how many have been built by Hamas, that benevolent organisation, in Gaza? Lack of concrete and money for weapons and ability to dig and construct structures underground are not problems for Hamas apparently.

The rocket attacks have been condemned as terrorism by the UN and EU, and have been categorised as war crimes by Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch.

mathanxiety give it a rest why don't you? How many people have the rockets killed? How many orphans have they made? How many children's lives have they ripped away? How much damage have they done to the infrastructure?
How many more rockets do you think Israel's actions are stopping in the future? How many terrorists is Israel making worldwide at this very moment? Because the IDF's actions are grist to the jihadists' mill and make ALL of us unsafe.
You're just begging for an angry reaction and I think you're getting a kick out of it. It's a sick game.
There is no equivalence whatsoever.
Stop pretending there is.
And if the Israeli citizens hate the rockets so much, here's what they can do:
Vote their shitty government out.
Protest at the treatment of the Palestinians.
Protest at the wall.
Stop the settlements.
Refuse to do national service.
Involve themselves in peaceful initiatives aimed at bringing people together.

From 2000 until april 2013, 1,518 palestinian children have been killed by Israeli forces.

That is 1 palestinian child killed every 3 days for nearly 13 years. That figure does not include the latests genocide.

6000 children were injured during that time.

9000 children were arrested during that period.(under 18 years)

Almost 250 palestinian children are in Israeli prison - 47 of them are under 16.

Israeli regime is disgusting through and through.

Majority of Israel will one day wake up to the genocide committed in its name, and their crimes will haunt the perpetrators.

"In 2006, about 4000 Katyusha rockets were fired into northern Israel by Hezbollah from inside Lebanon. A quarter of a million Israelis evacuated the Haifa region and relocated to other parts of Israel. A million people sheltered in bomb shelters."

Did this just occur randomly, or was this because there was a war occurring and Israel was attacking Lebanon too, therefore meaning that Lebanese people were also forced to flee?

Clue: It's the latter.

Math you are embarrassing yourself now.

As the negotiations continued, French lawyer Gilles Devers announced he had lodged a complaint at the International Criminal Court on behalf of the Palestinian justice minister accusing the Israeli army of war crimes.. Guardian.

May this be one of many more court cases against Israeli army.

West Bank has seen one f the biggest clashes with Israeli forces in several years. Nobody is willing to put up with Israeli oppression anymore. Palestinians fight with stones, Israel kills them. Palestinians dont fight, Israel still kills them. Israeli aggression and genocide has been made bare for all to see

Anyone who can defend Israeli regime's actions are a stain on humanity.

TheSameBoat Fri 25-Jul-14 09:01:52

I am correctly pointing out that history is happening NOW and that no one seems to wants to learn from history...
...Palestine on the other hand is getting smaller and is bearing the brunt of the death toll. 50 Palestinian deaths for each Israeli death. That is a huge disparity by anyone's standards.

Can you explain exactly what lesson from history the Palestinians should learn?
I suggest the lesson to learn for Palestinians at this point is that rocket fire into Israel will bring adverse consequences to Palestinians but not to Israelis because of investment in defence and bomb shelters. Following from that Palestinians should draw certain conclusions:
(1) Stop firing rockets, and abide by international law regarding firing of rockets at civilian targets
or
(2) Build bomb shelters.

As for Palestinians needing to stop supporting Hamas and meekly accept peace on Israel's terms, you are the one who is naive if you think you can swoop into a country, displace a people and expect no repercussions.
This cuts both ways.
Israel has always been prepared for defence and has defended herself from the start. As noted before on this thread, Israel was invaded by most of her neighbours one day after declaring independence.
Is Israel showing any signs of meekly accepting the need to pack bags and leave quietly?
This is what Hamas wants. Should Israel do this?
Should Hamas take note of Israel's unshakeable determination to resist attacks and imperviousness to international criticism?

Or do you reserve the right of Palestinian 'leadership' to be criminally stupid?

What Israel has correctly learned from history is that massively superior defence, arms and manpower will win the day, and to shrug off the bleating of those who can only accept Jews as political animals when they play the role of history's eternal victims [for example 'with the terrible history Jews have, why is Israel behaving like this?] and cannot therefore abide the spectacle of Jews asserting their right to have and to defend their own state where they can forever be citizens without an asterisk by their names, never marked out as alien, and with all the rights and responsibilities of citizenship automatically and unconditionally accorded to them (i.e. Zionism).

Yruapita - it is possible to care about Palestinian children dying AND about Israeli children having rockets fired at them. It doesn't actually have to be either/or.

Ignoring the real suffering that ordinary Israelis have doesn't make you 'one of the good guys', as you seem to think, it makes you blinkered and pushes peace further away.

I refer you (again) to a Palestinian father who lost 3 children to Israeli bombs - someone that not even you, surely, will have the guts to call an apologist for Israel, or "a stain on humanity", in your words:

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jul/18/father-children-gaza-bloodshed-palestinians-israelis

"The current conflict has led to at least 260 people being killed, more than 1,600 severely wounded, more than 2,300 Israeli air strikes, more than 1,300 rockets fired from Gaza and at least 600 houses and institutions demolished and destroyed. The children of both sides are traumatised and all aspects of daily life paralysed. The Palestinians are under attack while millions of Israelis facing attack are forced to hide in fear in bomb shelters. But the consequences of war go far beyond what we see on our screens. What we don’t see is 10 times what is visible and both sides are suffering.

After the killing of my three daughters by an Israeli shell in January 2009 I concluded that if my daughters were the last sacrifice on the road to peace between Palestinians and Israelis, then I accept their loss. I promised that I would continue to fight with the only means available to me: wisdom, courage, strong words and meaningful action.

But what I learned from that war that scarred my family so irreparably was that all of us (Palestinians and Israelis) take a defensive position to justify our acts. This originates from fear and from past experience. Only when we start to take responsibility and reconcile ourselves to new thinking will we get a different result.

Conflict is the result of fear, mistrust and suspicion. We need to smash these artificial barriers we have created in our minds because nothing will change until we change what is in our own hearts, minds and souls.

I understand intimately the meaning of unbearable suffering, loss, the absence of security and what it is to live in terror. And I understand and feel the suffering of the Israelis who have lost loved ones and are forced to live in fear. But what is the best way for Palestinians and Israelis to resume hope and life? We need to heal our people and close the wound completely, not in stages or in ways that leave part of it open.

Nothing is impossible but we need to act before it becomes irreversible. Palestinians and Israelis have been angry for a long time but we need to ask what our anger has achieved? It has brought destruction and injustice to ourselves and to others. When the war ends, and I hope it happens soon, all will celebrate the victory but in reality, all are losers from war.

What kind of victory produces orphans or maimed children and wounds to the soul that never heal? As a wounded, bereaved father who lost his three beloved children I feel the suffering of all human beings but I call for an end to this bloodshed.

This is a moment in history that must be captured. The hope and the future safety and freedom of Israel are linked to the security, safety, freedom and future of Palestinians. We are like conjoined twins and any harm induced to one will impact the other."

Or in the words of the well-known peace activist, Daniel Barenboim:

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jul/24/israelis-palestinians-losers-conflict-suffering-rights

"At the very heart of the much-needed rapprochement is the need for a mutual feeling of empathy, or compassion. In my opinion, compassion is not merely a sentiment that results from a psychological understanding of a person’s need, but it is a moral obligation. Only through trying to understand the other side’s plight can we take a step towards each other. As Schopenhauer put it: “Nothing will bring us back to the path of justice so readily as the mental picture of the trouble, grief and lamentation of the loser.” In this conflict, we are all losers. We can only overcome this sad state if we finally begin to accept the other side’s suffering and their rights. Only from this understanding can we attempt to build a future together."

GoshAnne, If you are referring to the conflict with Hezbollah that featured close co-operation between Iran and Hezbollah (a state within a state in Lebanon and an organisation whose aim is the establishment of Islamist rule there, and most recently a major player in support of ISIS in Syria) -- then perhaps you should wind your neck in, unless you think Islamist militants are in any way a positive element in the Middle East.

The conflict in question began when Hezbollah fired rockets into Israel.

Does Israel have a right to pursue with the intent to destroy anti-Semitic Islamic militants when they are attacking Israeli civilians, or is it only states that are attacking Israel that have the right to establish themselves as forces within the borders of other states (i.e. massive Iranian support for Hezbollah in Lebanon) for the purposes of attacking Israel?

Topbanana1, i met Dr Abulaish in Asia. He raised half a million dollars in 3 hours for his foundation in 3 hours. A good proportion of the donors were American jews. Those WITH A CONSCIENCE.
Put a name and a story on the spin and the good men stand out.
Mathanxiety do you know what Tzedek means?

Springheeled:
How many people have the rockets killed? How many orphans have they made? How many children's lives have they ripped away? How much damage have they done to the infrastructure?

The answer is not many.
This is not because of lack of rockets.
It is because of investment in defence technology and the building of hundreds of thousands of bomb shelters.

How many rockets are aimed at Israel annually?

'And if the Israeli citizens hate the rockets so much, here's what they can do:
Vote their shitty government out.
Protest at the treatment of the Palestinians.
Protest at the wall.
Stop the settlements.
Refuse to do national service.
Involve themselves in peaceful initiatives aimed at bringing people together.'

Seriously?
What you are saying is that as long as you personally support the cause of certain terrorists then whatever state they are seeking to destroy should try really hard to allow its own destruction.

As pointed out earlier on this thread, Hamas and Fatah want no part of peaceful co-existence with Israel. They want Israel gone and an Arab state set up in its place.

The Israelis hate the rockets and have decided to invest in defence and to demonstrate to militants that their struggle is not winnable.

This is their right, just as Britain has a right to invest in defence against terror. Or do you think Britain should defend herself against terror?

Britain has constructed for herself a nice, tidy myth about the end of the Empire. The rosy picture attempts to convey a context of British magnanimity towards the natives of various places, leaving them with the glorious legacy of the Imperial Civil Service and a functional Post Office and various other trappings of civilisation. Nothing could be further from the truth of how Britain was forced to withdraw in ignominious defeat after military failure, first in the modern era from Ireland, then from the rest of the states where Imperial rule had been imposed at the point of a rifle.

The British Empire fell because Britain was no match for determined terrorists except in the case of the Second Boer War (that featured the world's first use of a comprehensive policy of civilian depopulation and associated concentration camps, imprisoning Boer civilians). The myth disregards the fact that bitter and unconscionably dirty wars were fought by Britain in order to hold off the terrorists and keep its grip on the Empire.

Replacing the facts of the painful and bitterly resisted end of the Empire is the notion that Britain was overcome by a sense of fair play towards the peace-loving natives and fell over herself to accommodate their wish for statehood.

This myth seems to inform much of the commentary on what Israel should be doing, on this thread. Huzzah for the underdog (as long as the underdog isn't biting Britain on the arse).

Israel otoh, learned from the incompetence and lack of focus of the British in Palestine how not to lose to terrorists.
How not to lose to terrorists is to fight smarter and with more determination than Britain did to ensure the integrity of the state.

You sound entirely ridiculous tbh. It's no fun to argue with someone who doesn't put a sensible and thoughtful view forward. Others on these threads have made me think, assess and reassess but math there comes a point where defending the indefensible makes you take ever more bonkers positions and you have reached it.
How many have the rockets killed?
How are the actions of the IDF going to ever bring peace, to any of us in the world?

laptop I have a great deal of respect for Dr Abulaish. However, I object to the implications behind your statement those with a conscience.

American Jews and Jews anywhere as a religious/ethnic group are not Israel's moral guardians, nor do the actions of the Israeli state reflect upon their conscience. Ones who do not donate to the Dr's foundation are not automatically lacking in conscience. The inference that a Jew must actively distance themselves from Israel in order to prove their moral worthiness is deeply troubling. For a start, not all Jews support the actions of the state of Israel by virtue of their religion. Many other Jews can and do support Israel but do not support its every action (as is also true for many Israeli citizens).

Math answered your question though. They don't kill many as Israel has invested heavily in protecting it's people. Why are Hamas not doing the same? Considering they are sat on millions of dollars. The price of life maybe?

You may see it as defending the indefensible but I don't. Just because you don't like the answer doesn't mean it's not valid. The war is devastating on both sides. Hamas uses crude weapons though including nail bombs which cause horrific injuries.