with the terrible history Jews have, why is Israel behaving like this?

[ssd]

I would have thought they would be showing more compassion for a repressed minority but the opposite is happening

and Netanyahu saying they told the Palestinians to leave because they were going to be fired on...where the bloody hell would they go to?? IF THEY COULD GO AT ALL

Maths, you are totally twisting my words! I'm not painting a "fairy tale" scenario as you condescendingly claim, I am correctly pointing out that history is happening NOW and that no one seems to wants to learn from history.

What is happening to the Palestinians echos what happened to all other groups in history that have been systematically wiped out.

It is ironic though that you should lambast Palestinians for wanting to turn back time just 70 years yet Israel attempting to turn time back 2000 years receives no comment.

As for Palestinians needing to stop supporting Hamas and meekly accept peace on Israel's terms, you are the one who is naive if you think you can swoop into a country, displace a people and expect no repercussions.

Of course Israel has right to exist, no one here is disputing that and yes it will be under threat for some time but it has military clout and a strong tie with the US. It will survive. It will also be in a stronger position internationally when it stops breaking border agreements.

Palestine on the other hand is getting smaller and is bearing the brunt of the death toll. 50 Palestinian deaths for each Israeli death. That is a huge disparity by anyone's standards.

It is a terrible situation and there is no easy answer. I doubt it'll be solved until the Israelis themselves vote for change.

Yes sorry that was poorly worded - the Hamas rockets are aimed at all Israelis but I meant that in the particular current situation in Gaza, relatively few Israelis (thank God) are dying. I would like to see all violence on both sides stopped but we need peace talks and the underlying status quo to be changed before that will happen.

"It is Hamas firing rockets indiscriminately at Israeli men, women and, of course, children. Rocket fire has been aimed at all major cities within reach repeatedly."

Of course it is completely wrong that Hamas are attempting to kill Israeli civilians. 100% awful. But they see themselves as a people under siege, and Israel as an occupying force. Which is accurate. Does it justify killing? No. But equally it doesn't justify Israel's horrific response.

Max Hastings has a very interesting editorial in the Daily Mail today.
Well, those are words I never thought I'd say!!!

Maybe those on this thread claiming that criticism of the Israeli govt and military is anti semitic should read it.

I've had this horrible feeling for a long time that certain powers that be will be only too happy if there is a massive increase in anti-semitism in Western countries because the likely result is that ordinary Jews will be forced to move to Israel whether they want to or not. Even if they don't identify or are long-time conversos.

Some people are just out-and-out thugs and both Muslims and Jews have, and have always had, their fair share of them. Unfortunately they tend to do pretty well out of any conflict (including collaborators in the holocaust) and it's ordinary, nice people who lose everything and their loved ones...over...and over...again.

Reading this thread shows how complex this situation is. I am sympathising fully with the people of Palestine and it breaks my heart to see what is happening to their children daily.

What has scared me is when I saw posts by our students on facebook going from promoting peace to then justifying their support to kill the greedy Jews. Then after minutes deleting their anti semitic posts. Before posting again later. These are our graduates.

Galaxymum - will you report them? Graduates of where?

Yes, it is very scary. There are too many people who see ALL Jews as personally responsible for the killing of Palestinians. No matter that they're not Israeli, may have sympathies entirely with the Palestinians, might never have been anywhere near Israel or protested strongly for Palestinian rights or whatever...

Sigh. No one has claimed that all criticism of Israel is anti-semitic.

(Just as you could not claim that there is no anti-semitic criticism either.)

And I think it's vital that we counter that by providing as many opportunities as possible for UK students to mix with "the other" and see that actually they are not that different at all. I doubt those students would say that to an individual Jew they knew. But people extrapolate from stereotypes and imagine they reflect reality. Graduates should know better. But of course academic ability is no indicator of common sense or emotional maturity.

But we have had repeated complaints that posts and posters here are antisemitic. There is never anything specific to show what the complainant means.

You would I hope agree that it is possible for a person to criticise the actions of a state without being motivated by dislike of the majority religion of people within that state. If I criticise a Italian politician for being a crook, I should not be accused of being anti-catholic.

Some (not all) of the people who criticize Israel would like to see Israel cease to exist. They do not want to see a Jewish state at all.

Then some of those people (not all) get very annoyed if some people (not all!) find that stance anti-semitic.

We need a million man march for peace, for humanity, not for Palestine or Israel. The ordinary people on both sides need to have their voices heard before they are drowned out by the warmongers. In Iraq, we hear that ISIS like the idea of compulsory FGM for millions of women - definitely not their choice. But again, the voice of the normal, sane majority is drowned out by a relatively small number of violent loons. In Syria, millions flee - whilst heavily armed loons on both sides fight to the death. And they are supposedly of the same religion.

Bloody men. Power, power, power. What's wrong with just getting on with your neighbours. (And yes, I do know that some of the nutters are female too. But the vast majority are men with guns.)

So PigletJohn- what's your solution to the conflict, eh?

The criticisms on this thread have overwhelmingly been of the actions of the state of Israel in killing and maiming large numbers of Palestinians, and destroying the infrastructure of its smaller, weaker neighbour.

Those posts are not anti-semitic. They are criticisms of the actions of a state.

Some posts are criticisms of the acts if individuals, some of whom are Israeli and some of whom are Palestinian. Those posts are criticisms of the actions of individuals.

Yet we see repeated and unsubstantiated allegations of anti-semitism on this thread.

I've noticed that too Galaxy.
Too much pathos and very little reasonning.....

I agree with the desire for peace and humanity to reign- how extremely depressing it is that these goals need to be argued and fought for.

I also agree that most perpetrators are men.

But I think it's all about money and profit in the end, and race, religion etc is a smokescreen for that. For example, the US and Israel have a special relationship based on arms, surveillance and other IT equipment, pharmaceuticals and the mutual need to have a continual enemy (or who would you test the weapons on and spy on?) and no peace.

Also, look at the actions of Western countries in the vote at the UN. There was a marked and shameful divide. Could it be that the rest of the world is not bound to Israel ecomically and so can criticise with impunity?

As the situation and reputation of israel worsens I have seen across the media that Israel is working hard to portray itself as a victim. This just won't work. It cannot claim to be a victim whilst butchering babies. It is bizarre to watch israel cry about rockets being fired, burying soldiers, airports being closed, not bring allowed to exist. It is mirroring the grief of the real victim, palestine. It's like watching a very unsavoury chaucer parody.

I agree with TB that we need a March for peace and for it to include everyone who is sick of the violence.

Interestingly, I've noticed many friends and family members completely reverse their opinion of israel during this genocide. This hasn't happened before. I'm hoping this event will be significant in the long walk to freedom for the palestinians.

Ok, i haven't read the whole thread, but I need to post this. Apologies for the minor derail.

As a Jew, I find the very premise of the question the OP posted troubling and offensive. The Israeli state should operate to at least the standards of international law (and I would like to see them go better than that) but that is because every state and in particular a state which models itself as a liberal, Western-style democracy, should.

The expectation that the descendants of an oppressed minority should somehow retain that knowledge and make it the basis of their relationships with other oppressed minorities is both naive and disturbing. It is disturbing because I have never heard it used - and certainly not with such regularity - about any other formerly oppressed minorities. This suggests a singling out of Israeli actions for criticism based upon the Jewish religion and heritage. I find that anti-semitic, and I am a long way from considering criticism of Israel anti-semitic. It suggests that Israel somehow has greater obligations than any other state in the world because of the holocaust, the pograms, the social exclusion and other forms of discrimination and oppression exerted against Jews in the past. In other words, has greater obligations because of what other states and other peoples have done.

I can't begin here to explain what is wrong with that, but I will draw out some comparisons. Do we expect India to "behave better" because of its experiences of British colonialism? Or Eastern European democracies because of their experience of communism? Or African-Americans because of slavery and Jim Crow? Or gay people because of a lengthy history of ostracism, imprisonment, execution and torture? No.

So, in that case, why Israel? Surely, the only acceptable way of phrasing the OP's question is in a modern liberal democracy which purports to abide by the rule of law, why is Israel behaving like this?

I think that's a simplistic reading, Springheeled, as Muslim nations are hardly the powerless wallflowers you paint them as. Middle Eastern Muslim states own oil, let us not forget, and have bought up lots of the UK, as well as holding power in their own countries!

Whilst I am sure that the military-industrial complex certainly stands to benefit from an ongoing state of war, as foreseen by George Orwell, I'm not convinced that Israel is naturally one of the 'in crowd' on this. It has few natural resources and being the bait in the US's trap is not really in its own interests. It is because of Israel's relative powerlessness compared to the Arab bloc that Israel can be and routinely is criticised with impunity.

Whereas Syria gets away with almost no headlines despite an estimate 150,000 dead there compared to the hundreds in Gaza - because it is not in the interests of Muslim nations to criticise other Muslim nations. Despite the vast, overwhelming number of horrifying deaths of Muslim babies, children, women etc.

Why does everyone think Israel just fancied an extra bit of territory one day so marched in and took Gaza? I think a lot of you need to read up on your modern history because that is NOT what happened.

Gaza was occupied by the Ottoman Empire then by Egypt and then by Israel as part of it's defensive strategy, after it was attacked in the 1967 war. If you don't want a country to occupy you as a defensive strategy, don't invade it. Equally, if you don't want a country to attack the places you use to launch weapons at it or abduct its citizens, don't launch weapons at its schools and hospitals and don't abduct and murder its citizens. If you use civilians, hospitals, schools as human shields there is a foreseeable consequence that they will get injured.

Ffs, all Israel wants is for these terrorists to leave it alone and stop trying to destroy it.

The UK is not a Muslim nation so that point is irrelevant to most of us on here.

dancingwithmyselfandthecat that is a really great post

dancingwithmyself - agreed entirely. By contrast, when the Palestinians do appalling things, people try to excuse it by saying that they have been oppressed for many years, as if that excuses it. So the Jews have to behave better due to their persecution, while it gives others carte blanche to do what they like.

A similar double standard is that Israel, in contrast to China, Turkey, Morocco, Spain, the UK, etc, apparently loses it's right to exist if it denies self-determination to anyone else, or otherwise misbehaved. I've asked a couple of times now for a list of other countries that don't have a right to exist, but haven;t had a reply.

What makes you think that the posters on this thread think that Israel should not exist?

'All israel wants is for these terrorists to leave it alone and stop trying to destroy it'

And what do you think the Palestinians want thunder?

Read that sentence, then read it again. Then read my post about israel trying to take on the role of victim. There is one terrorist in this genocide. One oppressor trying to destroy a nation, and specifically kids. And the palestinians who begging for it to end I will hide this thread now as I'm feeling very very despondent with the lack of humanity, compassionate and coherent argument.

If you are here to defend Israel then do it properly. Without rhetoric, without history, without inverted victim hood, without derails and deflection. Defend what they are doing this minute : obliteration a nation.