You have to laugh or you wouls cry

[newwave]

You Tory scum voters were warned but did you listen ? oh no you new better now society is being badly damaged the same as during the bitch Thatchers years.

Will Ghost Town be number 1 again because it seens like 1981 has returned with a vengance.

One question, the financial crash must be the Tories fault after all they blamed Brown for the last one, or maybe the Tory filth is wrong about Brown as they are in so very many things.

No where is my "I didnt vote Tory" badge.

I'm sure that will encourage a spirit of mutual community support

and if they don't do a good job, their sentence should be extended until they learn to do it right

We've had enough softly, softly care, love and public taxpayer money. These people don't respect care.

They are symptomatic of deep social problems in society.

On this point I completely agree with you but I think we disagree on the causes.

I think you believe it is because we are not spending enough money to support the very people rioting. And that had they have had the education and been given jobs then everything would be ok. Correct?

Whereas I see this symptomatic of a welfare system which encourages idleness/laziness. The police has been beaten into placing politically correct above the rule of law. If little Johnny robs an off license we don't blame Johnny for being a thug. It's his parents fault. Oh wait...no it's not, it's the government for not giving them enough money.

I think over the last few days the vast majority of people have lost their patience with these well meaning but stupid namby pamby policies and hopefully this will translate into politician's taking note and allowing the police to police and to put the law abiding majority above the "rights" of the thieving few.

The black worker, Sheldon Thomas, who works with black gangs, says that these gang members want discipline, they want rules. Progressive society has destroyed rules and have encouraged them to become what they have become. Sheldon says it is family breakdown and no structure and discipline.

To change it, you have to change minds. No more bending over backwards talking about their rights and getting down with da kidz. More structure and discipline, to engender feelings of respect. It's not rocket science, it can be done. These gang members would have preferred to grow up that way. Rules and penalties, no more indulgent stoking of their alienation by progressive, so-called caring policies, which don't help these young people, but lead them inevitably to feel justified in behaving as they do.

But things will change in this direction. Sheldon Thomas is an example of it, as was Shaun Bailey. It's just a matter of time and whether the politicians have the will. We know that Livingstone and the progressives don't have the will, but let's hope the Tories do.

I think you believe it is because we are not spending enough money to support the very people rioting. And that had they have had the education and been given jobs then everything would be ok. Correct?

No, we don't 'give them jobs' or 'support them'. I'm not talking about handouts. I'm talking about structuring a society where everybody has an opportunity to find reasonably paid work, where everybody can get a good education, and live in neighbourhoods free from crack addiction.

Contrary to your wild assertion that we live in some sort of 'hand out' society, most people are working harder than ever. As I have repeated over and over and over, workers rights are being attacked, people have no job security; many people are on zero-hour contracts, meaning they can be called in to work at any time, but have no idea what days or what hours and no guarantees of how many hours they will work or their income; wages have stagnated for decades, house prices are completely out of range for many or most first-time buyers. We don't live in a molly-cuddle society. We live in a deeply unequal society where most people struggle just to get by.

We are living in a recession caused by the financial sector and city speculators. This means that there are actually more people looking for work than their are jobs. It is no use bleating on about 'get a job' if there are no jobs and it's not use telling people to get jobs when they don't have a good education and no on will hire them anyway.

The cost of welfare fraud (where people who claim they can't work and don't work when they can) is roughly £1 Billion per year (according to the government itself). This is not a 'culture of entitlement'. It is about 1/140th the amount spent on genuine claimants.

Meanwhile, anywhere from £20 to £120 Billion is lost annually from tax avoidance and evasion.

It is simply sick to attack 'a culture of entitlement' and attack welfare when a hundred times that amount is lost through tax evasion and 1000 times that amount is spent on bailing out the financial sector, who reward us by awarding themselves bonuses from public money.

Get a grip. We don't live in a molly-cuddle society. We live in a deeply unequal, deeply unfair, poverty stricken society, where social mobility has never been lower. This is what lies behind social unrest and riots. There is no 'culture of entitlement' except at the very top - those who refuse to pay taxes, gambling with public funds, and then except the public to bail them out.

And it will happen again.

There will be more riots, and there will be another financial meltdown, because nothing has changed, and so far no lessons have been learned from the past. The city has returned to its gambling ways and society is becoming more and more unequal. Either we change this or we will continue to see more of what we've seen on the streets recently.

There will be more financial meltdowns because there are crooks at the top. But there is no reason to have so many crooks at the bottom. The people are on the whole good, if brought up in the correct way, with rules, discipline and respect for authority. There is nothing we can do about the crooks at the top, but we can change society to lessen the number of crooks, looters and arsonists at the bottom. The 9 year olds in balaclavas aren't political, they are just being brought up badly by a society that has progressively abandoned structure and allowed these families to disintegrate in this way.

"I figured you'd be busy working NewWave. Can I ask a question though? Do you ever see the irony of having to work for a large company, the product of a capitalist society which you despise so much? That you are merely a small cog in the big capitalist machinery, earning money for the "rich fat cats" whom you wish were taxed to the hilt to pay for the poor?"

NG2, I think I have replied to this before but for the record I have no problem with capitalism in fact I embrace it BUT NOT the Anglo Saxon feral capitalism
embraced by the likes of Bob Diamond who thinks that austerity is a great idea unless it's him of course, not the capitalism that holds down the wages at the bottom whilst engorging themselves at the top. Not the capitalism that wants to enhance "shareholder values" by screwing the workforce or suppliers (see Tesco etc).

Just consider the first "looters", expenses cheating MP's, bribe taking Police officers, the bankers who have looted the public purse and still take huge undeserved bonuses. They were/are a great example of "moral behaviour" to all of society.

"So in fact you are contributing to the very system which is keeping the poor downtrodden?"

So I am to a degree and that is the society I have to live in, I am not some "hair shirt" leftwinger.

I earn a lot of money by the standards of many and work very hard and many hours (over 55 most weeks and up tp 90 when we have a major design project) but I love it and the sense of acheivement.

The difference between myself and most right wingers and Daily Hate readers is that I want this for EVERYONE not a self chosen elite with all the priveledges (Gideon, Cameron, Clegg etc etc)

"Perhaps you could ponder those questions the next holiday which the capitalist pigs of your employers have paid you enough to be able to afford?"

"Capitalist pigs" I work for capitalists although (most) are not pigs, I earn a good salary, commission based upon sold job values and a twice yearly bonus based upon profits made, this applies to all employees and management/owners, this is how a company shold be run.

So when will the Tories offer these opportunities to all of the (Tory created)
record youth unemployed?.

Ttosca, to say there's no culture of entitlement is frankly just stupid. There plainly is. You only have to work in the job centre or benefits office or similar job to see this day in, day out. My partner works for a housing association and some of the people you see makes me want to weep. My mate who works for a council has many similar experiences. It's all over.

That's just it isn't it. In your world it's always someone else's fault. Never the person themselves who are to blame.

Newwave, that's actually one of the few posts you've made which makes me think we live in the same world and makes sense. So I won't try to counter the bits we obviously disgree upon. I just wish you every success on your future projects.

Here is your 'culture of entitlement':

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/mps-expenses/5297606/MPs-expenses-Full-list-of-MPs-investigated-by-the-Telegraph.html

I have a friend who works at the DWP. I know very well there are people who are able to work but refuse. These are a tiny minority. Most of them are genuinely looking for work and most of have been on benefits for a long time simply can't find work.

As the numbers show, the cost of fraud with respect to genuine claimants (at least discovered fraud) is about 7%. If we grossly exaggerate that amount and say there are 10 times more fraudulent claims, that's still 7% of claimants, I tiny minority - not a 'culture of entitlement'.

That's just it isn't it. In your world it's always someone else's fault. Never the person themselves who are to blame.

So that's just it isn't it? In your world, it's always the poorest and most vulnerable who are responsible for all of society's ills - never those in positions of power.

Sorry, that's .7% and then 10 x .7 = 7%

Baroness Warsi very good on Newsnight. Labour are losing the public. The polls show that the public think the riots are about criminality, but Labour bang their usual drum about EMA and government cuts that haven't yet come into force.

Patronising Diane Abbott always speaking to Baroness Warsi "with the greatest respect".

Nothing's changed, even out of power the progressives are as patronising, wrong and condescending as usual.

You're mentally ill, claig.

It takes one to know one.

Diane Abbott on about her father all the time, but that is totally irrelevant, because he wasn't a looter. It's the mentality of the looters that counts, not the rest of the law abiding community. Typical inability to face reality and understand the real problem.

Abbott using typical straw man arguments. She should be discussing the rioters, but instead keeps talking about the law abiding community. Deflection and spin.

"the progressives" it's all in the name, decent people want progress for all not the elite few.

btw ttosca has a point, you do appear to be a bit of a fruit loop and an obsessive in regard to the "left wing".

pot calling the kettle?
You're the one that talks about Tory scum. I don't say the left are scum. But I point out their wrong thinking of the left and the results that it leads to. I am with the majority who think the riots are about criminality and not government cuts.

You call Tories scum and filth and you call Thatcher a bitch. I don't call Blair names like that or say that the left are filth. But I do think they are wrong on many issues. The rude people are left wingers like you and ttosca who tell people to piss off and call Tories filth. People like ttosca, who are so unsure of their arguments and who are unable to debate in a free society without descending to personal abuse.

Do get it right "Tory cum POLITICIANS"

The majority used to think the Earth was flat, and of course it was about criminality but not only about criminalty, your view is simplistic.

I have two sons 20 and 25 they have never been in any trouble the oldest has a degree in maths and is a Chartered accountant and the youngest is still at Uni, they had everything they needed (not everything they wanted though) and a loving and supportive family.

How many of the rioters had those chances, some of course but I suspect the majority did not, if society treats you like shit do not be suprised if they kick back given the chance.

It was always a powder keg waiting to go bang and Tory rhetoric and cuts lit the fuse along with the Police harrasment, not an excuse but at least part of the problem.

You're an idiot, claig, and haven't listened to any arguments put forth here whatsoever. The arguments are lot more complex than 'government cuts'.

You are completely blinded by your irrational hatred of 'Progressives' and 'Socialism', even though you don't even know what these terms mean, except that you ascribe them to any group you don't like.

You're obsessed with a ex-fascist newspaper (Daily Heil) which writes, not so much journalism and news, but hatred, ignorance and bile based on fear. That's reflected in all your posts.

You don't listen to or address any arguments, you just rant about 'Socialism' like the corner bum who's had too much to drink.

The Tories are filth and scum, and you are free to call Tony Blair the same. I think he is both. You can have disagreements with people and their opinions, but when, like the Tories, your ideas and policies are so full of hatred, prejudice and ignorance that they do real harm to society, then calling them 'filth' is perfectly right.