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Politics

You have to laugh or you wouls cry

198 replies

newwave · 08/08/2011 21:04

You Tory scum voters were warned but did you listen ? oh no you new better now society is being badly damaged the same as during the bitch Thatchers years.

Will Ghost Town be number 1 again because it seens like 1981 has returned with a vengance.

One question, the financial crash must be the Tories fault after all they blamed Brown for the last one, or maybe the Tory filth is wrong about Brown as they are in so very many things.

No where is my "I didnt vote Tory" badge.

OP posts:
claig · 11/08/2011 01:16

'And what is for those who cannot gain entry.'

not all young footballers can get into football academies like Beckham did. The ones who fail to get in will go to our excellent comprehensive schools which also need improvement.

newwave · 11/08/2011 01:22

The ones who fail to get in will go to our excellent comprehensive schools

But of course they wont be as excellent as the grammer schools for the elite will they.

Fail the 11 plus and be labled as a faliure.

Finland has the best education system in Europe and guess what no private education and no grammer schools what it does however do is value all it's children.

OP posts:
claig · 11/08/2011 01:28

Some schools are better than others, some pupils are clever than others. That's life. We need to give access to the best schools to the brightest academically not the richest.

Nice talking to you. I have to get some sleep. Good night.

ttosca · 11/08/2011 01:58

Yes and you know what the most important difference here is with your kids and the people we see looting?

a loving and supportive family You have given your kids that.

That's great, but it doesn't even begin to scratch the surface of the problem. Of course good parenting is essential. Good parenting with boundaries. Many of these kids don't have role models. Many of them have absentee fathers or live in single-parent households. A lot of the time the parent is away working, some of them are on drugs. Yes, the parents are partially to blame, and that is part of the wider context of social malaise. But you don't just call them 'bad parents' and be done with it, you find out why it is that some kids aren't getting good parenting from their parents. In many cases, bad parenting has been passed down generations; the parents of kids have not brought them up well because the parents themselves don't have good people and parenting skills.

You raised them to have respect for authority.

Why should they have respect for authority? Do you think the people in power deserve our respect? The corrupt Met? The Press? Politicians? Do you think they deserve our respect? Really?

To value education and to work hard for what they want. Well done.

You point your finger at people for allegedly not valuing education, and then you refuse to see the connection between tripling University fees and scrapping EMA, and the feeling that many kids from poorer backgrounds have that a good education is beyond their reach. It's hypocritical.

Without that, there is little hope of kids growing up to be law abiding, a good moral compass and aiming high. And the ugly truth is that nothing any government can do to change that.

Sorry, but you're completely wrong. We all have a stake in society, and we all have a responsibility to care for the poorest and most vulnerable. Not just because it's right, but because if we don't, we see stuff happen like has just happened in London.

You can't resign a whole generation to poverty, poor education, no jobs, and no opportunities, and then tell them that their worth is determined by the stuff they have, and then tell them they're crap and it's their own fault that they're poor and that they're worthless, and not expect something to erupt.

Lastly isn't it a bit stupid to blame the Tories for the current looting? I don't see any 1 year old's running around looting. it's mainly teenagers & adults. Mainly a product of a Labour government policies rather than Tories.

For Christ sake. It's not a party political issue. Just because someone mentions the Tory cuts as a contributing factor, that doesn't mean the Tories caused the riots. The fact is that we have denied the past two generations especially of opportunities; it is widely acknowledged, in fact, that this generation is the first since WWI to expect, on average, a poorer standard of living than the preceding generation.

It takes years and decades to produce the sort of festering cauldron of poverty, racism, anger and lack of opportunities which leads to this kind of explosive riot. The Tories played their part by cutting social services and welfare, by scrapping EMA and tripling tuition fees, and shutting down youth centres, amongst many other regressive policies, but in fact, the harmful neo-liberal policies which have created such extreme amounts of wealth inequality and poverty and deprivation have been going on for decades.

The shooting of Mark Duggan was just a catalyst that set the whole thing off.

I'm telling you, we have a society-wide problem, and it's not simply a matter of 'bad morality', but structural problems which create poverty and lack of education and lack of opportunities, which, if not addressed, will almost certainly cause another incident like this to happen again.

For your interest, this was recorded two weeks ago:

Haringey youth club closures: 'There'll be riots' - video

After Haringey council shuts eight of its 13 youth clubs, local teenagers fear boredom will fuel violence between young gang members on the streets of north London

www.guardian.co.uk/society/video/2011/jul/31/haringey-youth-club-closures-video

ElBurroSinNombre · 11/08/2011 07:34

Without getting into the petty arguments that are going on, I do find it strange that some on here think that name calling is OK as long as they think it is justified (but apparantly not justified for others). Are you so small minded that you think that others reasonably held views can be dismissed in this way because they do not coincide with your own, on a message board of all places? Why not just answer some of the points made in a mature and measured way and then we can have a proper debate - or are you so blinded by your own agenda that you are unable to do that?

I would also like to ask newwave and ttosca if they think that 'elite' institutions have any place in our society? If not, why not?

claig · 11/08/2011 08:01

There are poor immigrants and asylum seekers that are not rioting and looting. They are poorer than our homegrown looters. People like the Polish woman who had to jump from the burning building to save her life. She works at Poundland, she doesn't loot.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2024684/Croydon-riots-2011-Monika-Konczyk-woman-leapt-flames-pictured.html

niceguy2 · 11/08/2011 10:16

It's funny isn't it. Even when I am complimenting Newwave's parenting despite us being ideologically poles apart, I'm still attacked.

Ttosca. Are you saying we should raise our kids NOT to respect our politicians & police? Surely that's the sort of people we've seen on the streets. Sorry I'd rather bring mine up to respect law & order. And teach them to protest peacefully and that it's not right and that there is NO excuse for raiding Foot Locker for trainers just because you can. That's just me though. You bring your kids up how you feel is best.

For Christ sake. It's not a party political issue. Just because someone mentions the Tory cuts as a contributing factor, that doesn't mean the Tories caused the riots.

Well actually I agree with you totally on this one. It's your friend Newwave who started with the words and I quote "You Tory scum voters were warned..." So he started making this political and I am merely pointing out the stupidity of the logic. I am really pleased we can agree though that the Tories did not cause the riots.

ilovemydogandMrObama · 11/08/2011 13:56

Am fairly sure this is not an edited video, but scary...

ttosca · 11/08/2011 14:16

Ttosca. Are you saying we should raise our kids NOT to respect our politicians & police?

No. I'm saying that politicians and police must earn our respect. It doesn't come automatically by virtue of their position. I currently see no reason to respect either after the many, many episodes of corruption and abuse we've seen from both in the past decades (since I have been here). 320+ deaths in police custody. Not one conviction. I don't see this as something I should have respect for.

Surely that's the sort of people we've seen on the streets.

Err, no, it's a lot more complicated than that.

Sorry I'd rather bring mine up to respect law & order. And teach them to protest peacefully and that it's not right and that there is NO excuse for raiding Foot Locker for trainers just because you can. That's just me though. You bring your kids up how you feel is best.

Why don't you instead teach them to respect their neighbours and to act morally because it's both the right thing to do and because of enlightened self-interest? Telling kids to 'respect law & order' won't teach them to act ethically if the law, the current order, politicians and police don't act ethically themselves. You're teaching them how to 'follow orders', not how to behave themselves. Of course, you will do what you want. I don't have kids.

For Christ sake. It's not a party political issue. Just because someone mentions the Tory cuts as a contributing factor, that doesn't mean the Tories caused the riots.

Well actually I agree with you totally on this one. It's your friend Newwave who started with the words and I quote "You Tory scum voters were warned..." So he started making this political and I am merely pointing out the stupidity of the logic. I am really pleased we can agree though that the Tories did not cause the riots.

Don't oversimply or misrepresent what I am saying. This is not a physics. There is no simply law of cause and effect like billiard balls. What I said was that, on their own, the recent Tory cuts are not likely to have been able to cause these riots. However, the recent shooting and the closure of youth centres due to budget cuts almost certainly contributed towards to context of fomenting these riots.

I notice that you replied to two things: a) Respect for law & order and b) The Tories aren't to blame.

Are these really the two most important points, in your opinion, in my recent post? Not social deprivation, poverty, or bad parenting, but the former two?

Have you started really considering the context of these riots, niceguy, or do you still believe it's 'simple criminality' and nothing else?

newwave · 11/08/2011 20:17

"I would also like to ask newwave and ttosca if they think that 'elite' institutions have any place in our society? If not, why not?"

It depends what you mean by "elite institutions", if you mean places like Eton and Harrow where who you are and how much money you have then no they should go.

If you mean elite top quality education establishments with the very best facilities FOR ALL including the inner cities as well as the home counties then yes of course but then they would hardly be elite as all would be the same.

I think your mistaking elite for eletist.

Do you truly think Dave, Gideon and Clegg would be in their positions if they had been born in Toxteth or Tottenham, do you. No they are there because money buys advantage and priviledge and often impunity to break the law.

OP posts:
niceguy2 · 12/08/2011 12:23

Hi Ttosca

Now it seems the violence has subsided, many people are rightly starting to look at the causes. No doubt there will be much made about the relative poverty and conditions many of the looters have grown up in.

To a certain extent there will be a correlation but that's not to excuse their behaviour.

I think we must also refrain from assuming the answer is to throw more money at the people involved. Let's face it, we tried over the last thirteen years. Endless amounts of money was pumped into Surestart, tax credits, EMA etc. etc. But it would seem to many like things have got worse, not better.

At this stage, I'd totally support policies which offer young people education & training opportunities as well as policies which crack down on public order offences. In other words, here are the stuff you can do to make your life better if you try and if you don't and stray to the wrong side of the law then we'll deal with you harshly.

I don't think that's unfair. It's ok people bleating "There are no jobs." Or "Foreigners are nicking our jobs" etc. etc. But most of the time it's just lazy arsed people using it as an excuse.

ElBurroSinNombre · 12/08/2011 12:32

newwave;
I have some very bad news for you;

life isn't fair.

Some are born rich, some are born poor, some ugly, some beautiful, some fat, some thin, some clever, some not so clever etc. I feel that the energy you waste seemingly envying others who have different circumstances to your own could be better spent. Personally, i don't care if the PM was privately educated or whatever, I just want someone in the position who will do a good job for our country (In the case of Cameron I doubt whether this is possible in this situation, as what he is facing will be well out of his experience zone - I felt this whilst watching the rather futile debate yesterday - as if that makes any difference).
Back on point, I work at a university that is an elite institution. The people who work in places like this are selected on ability (not background) and there are people from many walks of life there. Yes it is harder for some sectors of people to get there (because of their background) but it is completely possible if selection is done properly. Most people would accept that having elite institutions like this is a good thing for our society, (if only for the foreign investment that they bring).
The utopian vision that you conjure up, in my experience, and like the comprehensive education experiment (that has now largely been abandoned in favour of streaming), usually means bringing everyone down to the lowest common denominator.

aliceliddell · 12/08/2011 13:11

Oh, well. It's not fair that some people get cancer. Never mind. Nothing we can do. That's life.

ElBurroSinNombre · 12/08/2011 13:32

aliceliddell;
Thanks for your helpful message - although it is rather ridiculous, of course we should do something about cancer if we can.
All I am saying is that it is very naive to expect a level playing field in any thing (partly as we all have different genetic predispositions - science is starting to recognise this more and more). The idea of a human as a 'blank slate' at birth that was popular in the 60s and 70s is now being shown to be very misguided. Well meaning interventions, like those suggested, often do not have the desired effect - like the comprehensive idea which has now been abandoned having once been seen as the future of education.

ttosca · 12/08/2011 19:31

Now it seems the violence has subsided, many people are rightly starting to look at the causes. No doubt there will be much made about the relative poverty and conditions many of the looters have grown up in.

As they should, as it contributed to the context of the riots. Happy, healthy people with a good education and a future don't riot.

To a certain extent there will be a correlation but that's not to excuse their behaviour.

Try to understand that there is a difference between explaining the context of a phenomenon and justifying it. If you can't do that, then you can't do anything but pontificate about how people are 'evil' and you'll contribute nothing to the debate.

I think we must also refrain from assuming the answer is to throw more money at the people involved. Let's face it, we tried over the last thirteen years. Endless amounts of money was pumped into Surestart, tax credits, EMA etc. etc. But it would seem to many like things have got worse, not better.

The answer isn't to 'throw money at people' (here you go again with your obsession about public spending, even though it is lower in the UK than most other european countries). The answer is to give kids and the poor opportunities, so they're not resigned to a life of misery and poverty, without hope.

There are many things which could be done, such as reducing the taxes for the lowest earners and increasing the minimum wage. This, in itself, will reverse the situation where it is more economically fruitful to go on the dole than work for min wage. We should regulate the cost of public transport, which is already wildly out of control. This prevents the poorest from being able to take jobs outside of their cities. Regulation of energy prices would go a long way of preventing the situation we have now where 1/5 of the population suffers from fuel poverty.

At this stage, I'd totally support policies which offer young people education & training opportunities as well as policies which crack down on public order offences. In other words, here are the stuff you can do to make your life better if you try and if you don't and stray to the wrong side of the law then we'll deal with you harshly.

I agree, carrot and the stick.. but I don't think jail sentences should be punitive or retributive. The punishment should fit the crime. There was a recent report of a teenager getting 6 months for stealing a bottle of water. This is not just stupid, but harmful.

I don't think that's unfair. It's ok people bleating "There are no jobs." Or "Foreigners are nicking our jobs" etc. etc. But most of the time it's just lazy arsed people using it as an excuse.

Most of the time it isn't.

ttosca · 12/08/2011 19:38

ElBurro

All I am saying is that it is very naive to expect a level playing field in any thing (partly as we all have different genetic predispositions - science is starting to recognise this more and more). The idea of a human as a 'blank slate' at birth that was popular in the 60s and 70s is now being shown to be very misguided. Well meaning interventions, like those suggested, often do not have the desired effect - like the comprehensive idea which has now been abandoned having once been seen as the future of education.

You're talking nonsense. It has not 'been shown' that the blank slate theory is misguided. Before the 20th Century, criminality was often explained by genetics. People were 'born criminals'. They actually measured people's skulls to determine the 'criminal phenotype' (body type).

Modern science has come to a consensus that it is neither genetics, nor upbringing, nor a sort of 'split' between the two which strongly influences people's behaviour. It is a complex interaction between genes, upbringing, health, and the environment.

What has been positively debunked is the idea that there is a 'genetic predisposition' for criminal or lazy behaviour. That's utterly discredited, even racist, nonsense.

As for an 'even playing field' - that is the job of society. Some societies are fairer than others. The sentence: "Life isn't fair" is meaningless in this context. We don't live as animals in the jungle. We live in a society where we decide the laws and how we want to structure it.

We can either let the richest get away with shaping society for their own benefit, or we, the public, can fight to ensure that society is shaped for the benefit of all. It is our choice. We have the power.

ttosca · 12/08/2011 19:39

Ed Miliband links England riots to previous scandals

Labour leader Ed Miliband linked looting and riots which swept England to the MPs' expenses scandal, banking crisis and phone hacking.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8697700/Ed-Miliband-links-England-riots-to-previous-scandals.html

ElBurroSinNombre · 12/08/2011 20:32

ttosca,
You are the one talking nonsense. The blank slate theory denies the role of genetics in behavour. Your answer, which I agree with (about the complex interaction between genetics and environment), accepts that there is a genetic component. You really should think a bit harder before you start to type - and as for anything that I have put being racist - that is actually bordering on slander.

I disagree with you in that I actually think that we, the human race, are animals, complicated ones at that.

Anyway, given you have now started to abuse me personally, I am not going to bother to contribute anymore to this debate anymore. It is really pointless with someone who is so blinded by dogma and convinced that they are in the right. As I said in my first post, what pisses me off the most is that people like you are actually pleased about what has happened because it suits your political agenda. And that is very sad.

ttosca · 12/08/2011 21:19

ElBurro-

What I meant is that the 'blank slate' theory hasn't been proven nonsense, in the same way that Einstein's theory of gravity doesn't make Newtonian physics 'nonsense'.

Almost everyone accepts that idea that people are a completely 'blank slate' is untrue - but that's a straw man, and no one brought it up but you. You brought this up in the context of unfair societies. There was no need to bring it up, unless you want to say that the way we shape our society has no effect on the way people turn out.

Secondly, if you read carefully, I didn't say that you were racist. I said that those types of theories which put an emphasis or totally of explaining behaviour tend to be both racist and outdated - which is true. We no longer examine skulls to determine whether someone is likely to commit criminal acts. It's absurd. Likewise, there is no 'criminal gene' or 'laziness gene'.

Finally, I haven't abused your personally, and my 'political agenda' is an analysis of the situation beyond moral outrage. You can be outraged as much as you like, but if you don't actually question to conditions which lead to this situation, then you're going to have to deal with it again and again until you do.

Solopower · 13/08/2011 10:13

Ttosca, I agree with you, and hope you work with kids or young people. Smile

ElBurroSinNombre · 13/08/2011 13:55

The reason why the blank slate theory is important is because if it is not true (and there is a lot a scientific evidence that it isn't) then you can never realistically expect equality of outcome whatever you do. It seems that you ttosca, accept this on an intellectual level, but have difficulty on an emotional level as it ties in with your political beliefs. In your last answer (as in the previous one) you both accept that the theory is untrue and also say that it has not been proved to be untrue. Most know intuitively that the blank slate theory is incorrect anyway, we all know people who are innately good at certain things despite being in the same environment as others who are not so good. As for being out of date I would suggest that it is you who is not keeping up. Your attempts to link what I have put to a racist agenda, which is essentially a smear and about 100 years out of date, is as fatuous as me linking you to Stalin's death camps because you have left wing views.

As I have said previously, I really have no political axe to grind, the only thing that I think is that social policy should be informed by scientific knowledge about what it is to be a human being (rather than political dogma). We are in a position where this knowledge can be gained and expanded (because of genetic technologies and the types of experiments that can be done now) and the nature / nuture question can be seriously addressed.

Finally I would like to comment on what you call your analysis. You have a preexisting agenda and all you do is send us links to articles that support your opinions. That is not analysis because the answer is, in your mind, already known. I don't really want to get into the detail of your arguements but in one statement you simplistically correlate the looted areas with a social index of poverty - as if the poverty / disaffection was a cause or justification. According to the BBC, over 70% of those arrested were from different postcodes to the one that they were arrested in and many of those arrested are in employment. Unsurprisingly, you did not link to this article as it did not suit your agenda.

ttosca · 13/08/2011 18:18

The current riot aside it wont be long before we end up with a similiar "adult" situation, you cannot screw the poor whilst sheilding the "bankers" and their ilk without consequences, we see it with Thatcher.

Just remember who caused this reccession (the bankers) and who "stole" the publics money (the bankers). Bob Diamond that fine example of feral capitalism had the brass neck to say that the austerity measures must continue whilst pocketing a huge bonus It's a wonder he did not choke as he said it.

COST OF RIOTS, BANKERS AND WARS: Estimated cost of the riots: £200m. Tax payers bill for banking crisis: £131 billion. Tax money spent on Afghan, Iraq and Libya wars: £20 billion.

ttosca · 13/08/2011 18:40

ElBurro-

This is one of the strangest posts I've read in years...

^The reason why the blank slate theory is important is because if it is not true
(and there is a lot a scientific evidence that it isn't) then you can never
realistically expect equality of outcome whatever you do.^

That's nice, but what does that have to do with this conversation? Since when
did the topic change to equality of outcome?

^It seems that you ttosca, accept this on an intellectual level, but have difficulty on an
emotional level as it ties in with your political beliefs.^

What on are earth are you talking about?

^In your last answer (as in the previous one) you both accept that the theory is untrue and also say
that it has not been proved to be untrue.^

No, what I said was that contemporary theories about the nature/nuture argument
have evolved. The 'blank slate' theory was important at the time, since it opened
the ground for the realisation that we are (also) shaped a great deal by our
environment.

^Most know intuitively that the blank slate theory is incorrect anyway,
we all know people who are innately good at certain things despite being in
the same environment as others who are not so good.^

People 'intuitively' knew a whole lot of garbage, such as black people and women
not being equal to white men, and that the sun revolved around the earth, and
that the earth was flat. It's 'intuitively' obvious.

^As for being out of date I would suggest that it is you who is not keeping
up. Your attempts to link what I have put to a racist agenda, which is
essentially a smear and about 100 years out of date, is as fatuous as me linking
you to Stalin's death camps because you have left wing views.^

100 Years ago it was commonplace to link genes with criminality. Now, not so
much. Yet there are still fringe opinions from various nutcases that try to
link genes with criminality and laziness.

^As I have said previously, I really have no political axe to grind, the only
thing that I think is that social policy should be informed by scientific
knowledge about what it is to be a human being (rather than political dogma).^

That's precisely what you're not doing. You're doing the opposite. The latest
scientific theories show that we are a complex mixture of nature and nuture.

There is no general acceptance of biological determinism. Therefore, how we
shape our society, bring up our children, and the values we promote will have
a large or substantial effect on the way they act.

^We are in a position where this knowledge can be gained and expanded (because of
genetic technologies and the types of experiments that can be done now) and the
nature / nuture question can be seriously addressed.^

I think you should do more reading.

^Finally I would like to comment on what you call your analysis. You have a
preexisting agenda^

What are you talking about? What's my 'pre-existing agenda'? Equality of outcome?
Where did I ever say this?

If you mean that I have come to the table with ideas about society, politics,
poverty and civil unrest, then you'd be absolutely right. I don't try to hide
this, and I am not afraid to admit it.

I strongly believe that society can be shaped for better or for worse. It can
be more or less fair, and more or less just. No society is perfect, of course,
but we can choose the type of society we want to live in.

I also believe that poverty, lack of education, lack of opportunities, lack of
jobs, and inequality all create conditions where crime, anger, resentment, drug
abuse, broken families, and civil unrest foment. This is a pretty standard
sociological analysis. Most equal and well-off socities don't have anything
like the social problems that unequal and poor societies do.

^and all you do is send us links to articles that support your
opinions.^

Bizarre! Are you in the habit of posting articles which don't support your
assertions? That's the job of the opposition to make the case.

^That is not analysis because the answer is, in your mind, already
known. I don't really want to get into the detail of your arguements but in one
statement you simplistically correlate the looted areas with a social index of
poverty - as if the poverty / disaffection was a cause or justification.^

No. And this is your problem. Until you realise there is a difference between
understanding and justifying, then your analysis will get you no where. If you
have the belief that to understand is to justify, then you're intellectually
paralised, because morally you don't want to (in your mind) justify riots.

^According to the BBC, over 70% of those arrested were from different postcodes
to the one that they were arrested in and many of those arrested are in
employment.

So? Is there a rule that people rioting can only riot within their own postcode?
This is meaningless. And yes, many of those arrested were in employment, and
many weren't. However, on the whole (in general), theose who rioted came from
poor backgrounds, had poor education, and either were unemployed or were in
shitty low-paid jobs with no future. You'll notice that rich well-to-do people
from Richmond don't tell to riot. Why is that? Is it in their genes? Of course not.

^Unsurprisingly, you did not link to this article as it did not suit
your agenda.^

I didn't even see the article. You are completely paranoid.

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