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Politics

You have to laugh or you wouls cry

198 replies

newwave · 08/08/2011 21:04

You Tory scum voters were warned but did you listen ? oh no you new better now society is being badly damaged the same as during the bitch Thatchers years.

Will Ghost Town be number 1 again because it seens like 1981 has returned with a vengance.

One question, the financial crash must be the Tories fault after all they blamed Brown for the last one, or maybe the Tory filth is wrong about Brown as they are in so very many things.

No where is my "I didnt vote Tory" badge.

OP posts:
ttosca · 10/08/2011 15:01

b London rioters point to poverty and prejudice

  • Widening gap between rich and poor exacerbates tension

  • Inequality felt most keenly in London, say charities

By Mohammed Abbas and Kate Holton

LONDON, Aug 9 (Reuters) - Just yards from the east London street where riots erupted on Monday stands a house for sale that sums up the depth of division in the area.

With five bedrooms, three bathrooms and its own coach house, the elegant property has been put up for sale with an asking price of 1.7 million pounds ($2.75 million). The main attraction, according to the advert, is the sought-after location.

Many residents of the diverse borough of Hackney said it was this ever widening and very visible gap between the rich and poor that has exacerbated tension in recent years, especially as government cuts to welfare payments have started to bite.

Britain, one of the world's major economies, has a bigger gap between rich and poor than more than three-quarters of other Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) countries, according to a 2008 report. Charities in Britain say that inequality is most keenly felt in London.

"It's us versus them, the police, the system," said an unemployed man of Kurdish origin in his early 20s, sitting at the entrance to a Hackney housing estate with four Afro-Caribbean friends who nodded in agreement.

"They call it looting and criminality. It's not that. There's a real hatred against the system," he added, listing what he saw as the police prejudice, discrimination and lack of opportunity that led him and his friends to loot shops, torch bins and hurl missiles at police on Monday.

"There's two worlds in this borough. More and more middle classes are coming and we're being pushed out. The shops are pricing stuff like it's the West End, we can't afford the rents. We're the outcasts, we're not wanted any more.

"There's nothing for us."

Those who were out on the streets on Monday night, and those who had gathered amid the debris on Tuesday morning, said there was no interaction between the two distinct communities, even though they live practically on top of each other.

The rioting in Hackney was the third night of violence across the capital, sparked by the fatal shooting by police of a man in another poor borough.

"Youths are frustrated, they want all the nice clothes. They ain't got no money, they don't have jobs," a 41-year-old youth worker told Reuters, stood outside the Pembury estate, the scene of much of the trouble on Monday night and home to mostly young black people.

"To live, to have money in their pocket, they have to thieve, they have to rob.

"The people that run this country, they got money, they are rich, they got nice houses. They don't care about poor people."

"SCREWING THE SYSTEM"

The statistics confirm the problem.

In 2007 Hackney was ranked the second most deprived local authority in England, behind Liverpool. More than 10 percent are unemployed. Some 11,000 people rely on state benefits to live, meaning some 24 people are competing for every available job.

According to the council, Hackney is ranked sixth out of the 32 London boroughs in terms of crime.

At the same time, small one-bedroom flats regularly cost some 300,000 pounds. On a nearby street, smart cafes are full of young families attracted to the parks and transport links to the nearby financial district. Pricey organic food shops stand next to 'pound shops' -- where all the items cost one pound.

Professor Mike Hardy of the Institute of Community Cohesion said it was not just the division between rich and poor that caused the problem, but the fact they lived so closely together.

"There is a much greater visibility of the difference," he told Reuters. "In London, the current troubles are almost focused entirely not on a cause or a protest, but on greed and personal want. 'I haven't got something and I can take it'."

Britain's coalition government has made deep spending cuts since coming into power last year to tackle a big budget deficit. The poor say they have been hit hardest, with people in Hackney pointing to the closure of many services.

"The only way we can get out of this is education, and we're not entitled to it, because of the cuts. Even for bricklaying you need a qualification and a waiting list for a course. I signed up in November, and still haven't heard back," the Kurdish man said.

The government has also raised university tuition fees since coming into power, putting a higher education further out of the reach of youths from places like Hackney.

"They're screwing the system so only white middle-class kids can get an education," said another man, who declined to be named. He said politicians were the real criminals, and pointed to a 2009 expenses scandal in which several lawmakers were revealed to have cheated the taxpayer out of thousands of pounds.

"The politicians say that we loot and rob. They are the original gangsters. They talk about copycat crimes. They're the ones that's looting, they're the originals," he said.

One of the Kurdish man's friends pointed to alleged payments made to the police by journalists, claims currently under investigation as part of a wider phone-hacking scandal centred on the now defunct News of the World newspaper, part of Rupert Murdoch's News Corp media conglomerate.

"Everyone's heard about the police taking bribes, the members of parliament stealing thousands with their expenses. They set the example. It's time to loot," the youth said. ($1 = 0.617 British Pounds) (Additional reporting by Tim Castle and Paul Hoskins; Editing by Jon Hemming)

www.reuters.com/article/2011/08/09/britain-riot-contrast-idUSL6E7J91RM20110809

ttosca · 10/08/2011 15:02

Piss off claig.

claig · 10/08/2011 15:03

I believe you have contravened Godwin's law by mentioning Hitler. Is that the best you can do? Is socialism that bankrupt that it can't see the wood for the trees and recognise what is happening on our TV screens, where innocent people are being burnt out of their homes by rampaging youths in masks?
Listen to teh people in the local communities rightly berating Boris about why the police weren't there to protect them. Start siding with the victims, stop making excuses for the rampaging mob, stop pretending they have any political aims and stop trying to make political capital out of a national disgrace and tragedy.

claig · 10/08/2011 15:06

'"Youths are frustrated, they want all the nice clothes. They ain't got no money, they don't have jobs," a 41-year-old youth worker told Reuters, stood outside the Pembury estate, the scene of much of the trouble on Monday night and home to mostly young black people.

"To live, to have money in their pocket, they have to thieve, they have to rob.

"The people that run this country, they got money, they are rich, they got nice houses. They don't care about poor people."

"SCREWING THE SYSTEM"

The Kray Twins used to say similar things. Do you want the public to roll over and hand out money to these people to stop them looting and screwing the system. Sorry but the public doesn't agree with you.

JeffTracy · 10/08/2011 15:08
claig · 10/08/2011 15:15

'"The politicians say that we loot and rob. They are the original gangsters. They talk about copycat crimes. They're the ones that's looting, they're the originals," he said.'

That sounds like the kind of thing Mad Frankie Fraser might have once said. I'm sad that you seem to believe everything that the looters say and accept their pathetic justifications. I bet even Mad Frankie doesn't believe a word they say.

ElBurroSinNombre · 10/08/2011 15:17

ttosca,

At least that was a sensible reply - it would be better if you did this mopre often instead of calling people names because they read a newspaper that you don't like.
I don't agree with your correlation of a map of social depravation and the looting scenes, that analysis is so simplistic it is almost laughable. How do you reconcile the reports of many looters arriving on public transport (for instance in Enfield and Peckham). I know that this happened from first hand and also from reported accounts. Of those arrested some do not even live in London and are certainly not disaffected - several of those arrested have jobs and one is a university student. What really pissed me off is the way that yourself and newwave seem to be actually pleased that this is happening because it suits your political agenda. Just reread the moronic original post to get a feel of what I mean - I would not be surprised if newwave was pissed when he/she wrote that.
In the past, I have lived in some of the areas effected including Tottenham and also south of the river. Some of the time I have lived on deprived estates, because at the time I was poor. In my experience, most of the people who live in these places are not very much different from the rest of us - they just want peace and prosperity for their families. To try to make political capital out of their misery is very very low.
In London there is a very sophisticated criminal element who will take advantage of any type disorder to do things that they would not be able to do normally. In addition there are those who enjoy the buzz and are easily manipulated and led, and also many opprtunists. In the past disorder has manifested itself in football hooliganism, poll tax demonstrations and more recently student demonstrations (and now this). Please do not patronise the vast majority of ordinary law abiding citizens who like me despise and abhor these actions by trying to excuse them.

claig · 10/08/2011 15:18

Sorry, that should have been
Mad Frankie doesn't believe a word they say or tap into their blackberrys.

claig · 10/08/2011 15:25

'Just reread the moronic original post to get a feel of what I mean - I would not be surprised if newwave was pissed when he/she wrote that.'

I think that was one of newwave's more lucid moments.

Changing the subject, ElBurro is right. Of course there are going to be massive changes after this. There are very likely to be changes in the law and Boris suggested some sort of national youth service or something. I doubt that there will be a continuation of handing out large sums of money to the youth workers etc. in such tight financial times. I doubt the public will be prepared to pay more taxes for that, I think they will demand much tougher crackdowns on youth crime and anti-social behaviour. Things are going to change, let's hope for the better.

ttosca · 10/08/2011 15:30

ARGGHH!!!!!!!!!!!!

Long post just got killed by posting error - AGAIN!

ttosca · 10/08/2011 15:35

ElBurro

WIll reply again to your post at some later time. Sorry.

niceguy2 · 10/08/2011 15:37

Ttosca

Just listen to these looters I'll Keep Looting...

Do these sound like poor downtrodden folk fighting back against the system?

Nope, they sound like selfish little scroats who are taking the opportunity to loot. By their own admission they are doing it because they can. They can afford to buy these things but "why should they when we can get it for free" And they are not scared by getting an ASBO or their parents wrath.

Do these girls sound like they have a bigger agenda than having a bit of "fun"? Showing the rich we do what we want'. Hell they weren't even sure who's in charge! Clueless.

Why is it that it always has to be someone else's fault? Why can the simple truth not simply be that these people have been allowed to get away with too much from a namby pamby state who are more concerned with their 'rights' than the rest of ours. And that perhaps the answer is not to throw more of someone else's money at them but instead to give them a bloody big punishment and make an example out of them.

claig · 10/08/2011 15:40

With the recent resignations of two top police chiefs in the Met and reading between the lines in the lines in the Daily Mail, there may be big changes in how London is policed. I think the youths will find themselves cracked down on much more than before. We may well start to hear more about punishments instead of youth workers. But our prisons are full, so how will that work?

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2023082/Camerons-bid-hire-US-supercop-Scotland-Yard-chief-blocked-Theresa-May.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2023596/Tottenham-riot-Why-shouldnt-David-Cameron-ask-Bill-Bratton-run-Met.html

I also think Cameron might have to think again about the 20% cuts in the police force. They say that these cuts can be made without harming the fron line, but will this still be the case?

aliceliddell · 10/08/2011 15:46

Nothing to do with racism? Mark Duggan - shot by police in Tottenham. result - riot.
Black kids stopped & searched by police in Hackney. Result - riot.
Nothing to do with race? Hmm I think many inner city Black people might disagree.

niceguy2 · 10/08/2011 18:32

Mark Duggan's shooting had nothing to do with race at all. The riots/looting which followed are nothing to do with his death at all. You don't protest a police shooting by robbing Currys & PC World and helping yourself to as many TV's as you can carry. That is not a protest any definition of the word.

As for the whole oh its cos of the poverty/educashun/lack of jobs....I notice the first person to appear before the courts was a primary school worker. So he had a job...presumably qualified to work at a school...oh and he was 31. So it's not just the unemployed disaffected youth. It's just looters being selfish and taking advantage to get things for free.

ttosca · 10/08/2011 18:38

Nick Clegg "warns" of riots if Tories are elected (11Apr10)

ElBurroSinNombre · 10/08/2011 18:44

ttosca,
Half of the time you are complaining about the over the top right wing coverage contained in the Daily Mail. Then you post links and text to any media outlet that supports your view - as if that makes your opinions any more right. All of us could do that sort of selective quoting if we wanted - it does not make what we say any more credible.And as if what is printed is in any way true in any case, they are just opinions like yours and mine. FFS on another thread about the financial crisis you cited the Daily Telegraph - that really did make me laugh, sister!

ilovemydogandMrObama · 10/08/2011 18:46

claig, no doubt some one will come up with a bright idea for more prisons, like decommissioned ships moored off the Isle of Wight or somewhere...

ttosca · 10/08/2011 18:49

I'm sorry, do you want me to only post links from The Guardian? If I did, wouldn't you be saying that the Guardian doesn't count, because it's a woolly liberal rag?

I post links from right-wing papers as well to show that sometimes even 'the other side' have something to contribute other than fear, ignorance and hate of the Daily Mail.

ttosca · 10/08/2011 18:57

Mark Duggan's shooting had nothing to do with race at all.

And you know this how, exactly? The met has a reputation and history of racism, and has admitted it has had a problem in the past. 300+ people have died in police custody, no policeman has ever been convicted; juries are reluctant to put a policeman in jail.

The riots/looting which followed are nothing to do with his death at all.

Actually. they did. The ones in Totenham, following the night where the family and public went to the police station and were brushed off most certainly did.

You don't protest a police shooting by robbing Currys & PC World and helping yourself to as many TV's as you can carry. That is not a protest any definition of the word.

You're still not getting this, are you? These riots aren't explicitly political in the sense that the rioters have explicit demands for political change. They are symptomatic of deep social problems in society.

Happy, educated, healthy kids with a job and a future tend not to riot. There is a reason that thousands of young people all over the country felt the desire to just go out and riot; it's not a simple as they are just 'bad people' and that's it. They have no jobs, no future, a poor education, and almost nothing to lose.

Riots are political - they are always political. There can hardly be anything more political than a riot. If people are rioting, then parts of society are broken, and need to be fixed. You can either just continue to condemn without looking at the context and causes and make yourself feel all moral, or you can look at the situation in society that causes thousands of young people to riot, and try to change things so that kids have a future, and these riots don't happen again.

ElBurroSinNombre · 10/08/2011 18:58

No - I would like it if you just stated your opinions without posting media links and text. This is not science, you do not need to reference everything and to me it does not lend any credibility at all to what you say. Don't you get it - they all have an agenda - so finding an article to support your viewpoint is not at all hard. What is printed is often not really true in the literal sense, but you post it like it is the final word - look I have found an article that supports me so therefore I am right. Whatever you think of me, I am not fussy about what I read (Sun, Guardian, Mail (well pushing it a bit), Times, Mirror whatever) - I just don't take it that seriously as a lot of it is crap.

claig · 10/08/2011 19:02

That poor Malaysian boy whose jaw was broken and teeth are missing and whose bike was robbed has just been on the news. Then the other pack of scum robbed his bag while he was dazed, bleeding and confused. He had only been in the country 4 weeks, and was unfortunate to meet the scum on the streets of England. These over-entitled, state funded, immoral savages, created by a society which feeds their feelings of victimisation and panders to their every grievance by throwing money by the fistful to any scheme that is claimed to socialise them, while they laugh in the faces of law abiding society.

People all over the world are much poorer than them, they have no state help and funding and no youth workers, but they don't act like these savage ingrates.

What's the solution. Some like Livingstone say, even more taxpayer money thrown at them. Let's see if the Tories follow his advice.

aliceliddell · 10/08/2011 19:11

Somebody look up 'alienation' won't you?

claig · 10/08/2011 19:20

aliceliddell, they are alienated, but they have been encouraged to be alienated. The TV series and media always tells them they are victims and stokes their sense of grievance. It's the same with the way that people on MN often refer to Tories as "scum". These constant messages make people feel entitled to disregard and disrespect other members of society. That's why they feel entitled to do what they do. The politicians bend over backward to listen to them. Boris listens attentively while he is told that the government is taking money out of babies' mouths. No wonder they let it all out.

The black woman on Channel 4 News just now had it right when she angrily told Boris that there should be no more softly softly approach to these people. The people who live and own businesses in those areas want protection, not progressive political policies that have patently failed their communities and society as a whole.

claig · 10/08/2011 19:33

Every individual caught on camera looting, burning and carrying out violence should do 3 years hard labour building homes, laying roads, fixing potholes and any other useful jobs society can think of. They shouldn't just be released and given more dole money.