How about thinking of the elderly for a change ?

[ivanhoe]

The middle classes have managed to put their case on the media map because of Child Benefit reductions.

Wheras the pensioners cause has never found a media voice.

So middle England are moaning about losing their Child benefit, and the media are picking up on it and discussing it as a topical issue, because the middle classes are making a fuss.

But hang on a minute ?, the poorest people in this country are not the middle classes, they are the working classes who in proportion to income are paying more taxes than the middle class, and the pensioners on a £5,000 a year State pension receiving a State pension which they have already paid for while working prior to their old age retirement are being ignored, even though the oldest pensioners fought for this country during the War years.

Our elderly people are the generation that government?s have run rough shod over for the past 30 years, this is the generation we should all be speaking up for, and this is the generation who have paid into the system all their working lives, but have to endure a basic State pension of £97 a week, and means tested handouts.

Many woman get less State pension due to lack of contributions while raising families.

You are not gong to get far with that arguement on here.

The people with all the housing wealth in this country are old people. The ones with the well funded public and private pensions, free TV licences, free bus passes, free prescriptions, free university eductaion for their DCs are the pensioners. Buying a sensible family house is the biggest problem most families have - and they are forced to buy them off pensioners who have paid a tiny fraction of the current asking price and with all the capital gains rolled up tax free.

The Public Spending Review did not touch pensioners at all. In fact thay got an extra benefit given to them as far as I recall.

I know not all pensioners are rich or even well off but on average they are compared to struggling middle income or low middle income families.

Housing wealth doesnt pay bills, and if you think the freebies help pay the bills you could not be more wrong.

What is needed is a decent State pension income, but middle England in the general sense seemingly are obsessed with number 1.

I know not all pensioners are rich or even well off (((((but on average they are compared to struggling middle income or low middle income families )))))

Utter rubbish. But typical.

///////You are not gong to get far with that arguement on here./////

I am fully aware that we live in a Society that doesnt give a fig for either it's pensioners or old age in general.

But there again todays middle classes were spawned from the most devisery, self centred arrogant, politician of all time in this country.

Her name I cannot even bring myself to write.

I would like to see much more redistribution of benefits among the elderly.

Some are quite wealthy indeed and some are really struggling.

It would make a lot more sense, and be much fairer to limit free prescriptions, t.v licences and such and give more to those surviving on a basic state pension.

Lots of pensioners are very wealthy and do not need winter fuel allowance.

The whole area of eligibilty needs looking at very closely.

My grandparents just bought a huge tv with last years and this years wfa and money saved from tv licence because they just don't need it whilst my son and I freeze with ice on the inside of the windows because we simply can't afford to put the heating on.

Bloody ridiculous.

I don't know the numbers of pensioners that are relying 100% on the state pension to cover their outgoings but I think they're in a minority. Pension credits top up incomes for that section. The rest, if they've invested in a pension during their working life, got some savings, and own a property etc., are not exactly rolling in it but they're not on the poverty line either. They may be on a fixed income and may struggle if inflation increases or if interest rates remain low, but they're better off than many.

The biggest problem still is getting the poorer pensioners to apply for the money they are due. A lot of it is sitting there unclaimed when it could be taking old people in need out of poverty. I don't think we can blame 'Middle England' (whoever they are) for that situation. There are several pensioners in my family and the younger members help them as much as we can, whenever we can. We do 'give a fig'.

WRONG WRONG WRONG.

For heavens sake put some thought and insight behind what your all saying.

Britain's elderly people have already spent a working life funding into the system, whether they are rich or poor, they all should be paid a decent State pension it is that simple.

Write into your server on your compputer the following and investigate, dont just read what you want to read, research the issue, here we are.

The National Pensioners Convention .

The biggest problem is "NOT" GETTING THE POOREST TO CLAIM MEANS TESTED HANDOUTS.

The biggest problem is making middle England realise that pensioners, rich or poor, have "THE RIGHT" to a decent State pension.

Britain elderly people are just not revered in this country as they are in Europe, Switzerland, and the Nordic country's.

Our pensioners have been cast aside like rag dolls since the 80's.

Ivanhoe

I think you're completely wrong. When the average life expectancy was 65-70 giving people a pension at 60 or 65 might be sensible.

When life expectancy is 80+, giving people pensions at 60 or 65 is unsustainable. The current UK state pension liability is £2.2 trillion. Use the correct discount factors and the reality is £3 trillion.

A decent state pension? Yes. But at age 75 not 65.

By the way, pensioners have huge political clout. They turn out to vote and they outnumber the young and middle aged.

Politicians are frightened of upsetting them. Does anyone remember how Cameron was asked about free bus passes in the PM debates? Just about the only firm commitment he made in the election I can remember is not cutting free bus passes.

Anyone notice where the benefits cuts landed? Not on the old at all and that is baked in the cake for next Parliament.

Riven - very good points.

Also, why do children from poor families pay for bus fares to school which is mandatory by law for them to attend yet pensioners get free travel? Why do so many single mothers on low income end up in prison for not paying TV licence but older pensioners get it free.

That is deeply unfair and socially unjust.

IME a lot of well of pensioners are very grabby and have a very deep sense of entitlement. They are like this because its all they have ever known. Unlike their parents generation or their children's generation they were brought up in the most generous welfare state known to man.

They did not pay for that welfare state they enjoyed and are still enjoying. The deficit it created will be paid by future generations.

I tend to agree with you BeenBeta.

The cuts seem to be focused on young people or chidren (CB, tution fees) which seems unfair given that it is exactly those young people who will be paying for the UKs £5 trillion in debt liabilities (of which £4 trn is state pensions and public-sector final salary pensions).

Ivanhoe: "Britain's elderly people have already spent a working life funding into the system". The problem was that they didn't pay anything like enough to pay for their pension benefits. Hence the huge pensions blackhole. Not their fault of course. Nobody predicted lifespans would rise so rapidly.

But I don't see why my 1 year old DD should have to pay for them or my unborn child.

Every generation needs to pay their way.

I don't know about anyone else but I am thinking about this very seriously. Have done for a long time, in fact. The population is living longer, there are many more people surviving 20 and 30 years into retirement and the birth-rate is not keeping step. To afford the current basic state pension plans we're already looking at retirement ages getting closer to 70. Something has got to give. Many people like me were encouraged to make private pension provision back in the eighties by 'she who must not be named'... and the advice still stands and I think it should be heeded.

I don't think we're going to agree... not while you persist in calling pension credits 'handouts' anyway.

The reason things like child benefit cuts are in the news is because they are new things that are going to make life a lot worse for a lot of people who are not wealthy. Same with housing benefit cuts - it is a change for the worse to people who cannot afford it.

The only proposal regarding pensioners is to retain all the existing universal credits, and to make the pension itself simpler and more universal. Sounds a good deal to me.

Ivanhoe - They paid into the system and in return received the benefits of the system. The money they paid in was not saved to pay their pensions. It was spent.

Oh dear oh dear oh dear, reading these posts it is so obvious to me how easy it is for politicians to devide and conquer this nation .

Again. Pensioners have paid into the system all their working lives. An increase in the State pension is the right thing to happen.

Much much more of Britain's Gross National Product should be used to fund a much higher state pension "as of right".

For 30 years British government's have used just 5 per cent GNP to fund State pensions, this amount should be trebled.

/////The only proposal regarding pensioners is to retain all the existing universal credits, and to make the pension itself simpler and more universal. Sounds a good deal to me.//////

No comment.

/////The population is living longer/////

I see your parroting the media and the politicians. This is the Kings new clothes all over again.

Its funny how we manage to wage wars all over the world, send millions a day to Europe, including now helping to bail out Ireland via billions, but that living longer is a problem. ????????????????????????

////////Every generation needs to pay their way.//////

We do, its called income tax.

/////They did not pay for that welfare state they enjoyed and are still enjoying./////

Have you ever lived on welfare ?

as usual I aggree with Riven
disabled people and their families are the forgotten ones.
they will just continue to suffer as they have no voice at all

Ivanhoe - The welfare state is more than just Income support. It's child benefit, and the NHS and maternity leave and all those other things that the state does to assist the population.

The money that pensioners paid in is not relevant to the issue of what they should get now.

//////The money that pensioners paid in is not relevant to the issue of what they should get now.///////

In longevity terms alone, UK pensioners are worth at least £250- to £300 a week State pension.

I don't understand what you mean.

///////Also, why do children from poor families pay for bus fares to school which is mandatory by law for them to attend yet pensioners get free travel? Why do so many single mothers on low income end up in prison for not paying TV licence but older pensioners get it free.////////

Why why why why why ?, Why isnt the grass blue ?, why isnt the moon made of green cheese ?

The politicians just love all this why why why ????? devide and conquer stuff.

Now for gown up talk.

Europe's transport system are funded by higher taxation on the working public, and they also receive a huge State subsidy so faires are cheap for everyone.

In Britain through greed and self interest, we allowed John Major to privatise the railways in 1992 because it is always the Tory right wing weho privatise, other than nationalise.

New Labour did nothing to reverse privatisation of the railways because New Labour were right wing as well.

Ivanhoe - See, what you have done is talked about a possible reason why rail fares are different in other countries. What you haven't done is explained why pensioners get free travel and school children don't.